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[Tarran]

VEF nerfs AE effects pretty well. Just another reason to like it. Vanilla EU4 is full of stupidity.

Well, the MEIOU mod probably also has far more reasonable AE considering they were already tweaking the AE for 1.6.1 and the mod's not had an update for 1.6.2.

Also, yes, vanilla is quite bad.

One thing I will note though: Even if you don't want to get a mod, you probably could just change a few values and get the AE to your personal preference. I'm not a master modder, but I'm pretty sure it's but a few value changes.

[WealthyRadish]

AE decay can't be changed so far as I know, but you can increase various deductions in the defines that'll lower it for certain culture/religious circumstances as well as the base AE for taking provinces and fabricating claims. I'd definitely lower the fabricate claims AE, since it's dumb to get a coalition just because you failed a few dice rolls.

[Tarran]

I'm pretty sure that AE decay can in fact be changed. I remember doing that kind of thing when the first MEIOU for 1.6 was released.

1: Navigate to common>opinion_modifiers>00_opinion_modifiers.txt

2: Search "aggressive_expansion"

3: Change "yearly_decay = 2" to whatever you want.

[Micro102]

Well I'm fighting Persia (who somehow has tech rivaling western tech countries as a non-western tech country) And they are 2 tech levels above me in military and have a full offensive tree while I have half of it filled plus the first buff form the quality tree. I have a general that is just flat out better then them and get river and terrain bonuses in fights with many more men then them. Talking about 23 to 30.... They are still dominating. Even when I get +9 in dice rolls, they kill more guys. If I happen to get a bad dice roll (~ -5 compared to theirs) they destroy thousands of my men. And heck, I've seen thousands of my men disappear as soon as the battle begins. That seems way off to me, so could someone else give me their opinion?

[WealthyRadish]

Ah, I was just looking in the defines, I've actually never done anything in opinion_modifiers.

Well I'm fighting Persia (who somehow has tech rivaling western tech countries as a non-western tech country) And they are 2 tech levels above me in military and have a full offensive tree while I have half of it filled plus the first buff form the quality tree. I have a general that is just flat out better then them and get river and terrain bonuses in fights with many more men then them. Talking about 23 to 30.... They are still dominating. Even when I get +9 in dice rolls, they kill more guys. If I happen to get a bad dice roll (~ -5 compared to theirs) they destroy thousands of my men. And heck, I've seen thousands of my men disappear as soon as the battle begins. That seems way off to me, so could someone else give me their opinion?

Definitely possible, depending on the tech levels in question, morale/discipline difference (they probably have higher discipline if they've filled offensive), the leader difference, and your tech group. Often it's easy to overlook that tech levels will sometimes do something like give +1 cavalry shock or something, which early in the game can be huge.

[Sindain]

Also, I'm assuming that you're also not a western group, (if your two techs behind Persia) which means that a tech difference can be particularly devastating. The lower tech groups get new unit types less often which means that they're a bigger upgrade when they do. So if Persia crossed the right tech level there could be quite a dramatic difference in your pips.

[Micro102]

Ah, I was just looking in the defines, I've actually never done anything in opinion_modifiers.

Well I'm fighting Persia (who somehow has tech rivaling western tech countries as a non-western tech country) And they are 2 tech levels above me in military and have a full offensive tree while I have half of it filled plus the first buff form the quality tree. I have a general that is just flat out better then them and get river and terrain bonuses in fights with many more men then them. Talking about 23 to 30.... They are still dominating. Even when I get +9 in dice rolls, they kill more guys. If I happen to get a bad dice roll (~ -5 compared to theirs) they destroy thousands of my men. And heck, I've seen thousands of my men disappear as soon as the battle begins. That seems way off to me, so could someone else give me their opinion?

Definitely possible, depending on the tech levels in question, morale/discipline difference (they probably have higher discipline if they've filled offensive), the leader difference, and your tech group. Often it's easy to overlook that tech levels will sometimes do something like give +1 cavalry shock or something, which early in the game can be huge.

Lets just assume the best case scenario for them. They get an entirely new set of units in those 2 levels. That's all sorts of bonuses. But then I think of Native Americans. When you start fighting them they are pushovers, but would you fight a stack of 30 of them if they:

1) Had a stronger general

2) Had 7000 more troops then you

3) Had a river and terrain bonus

?

I feel that that would be risky, and that's with a huge tech advantage you get. Several units apart with many more ideas.

Also, I'm assuming that you're also not a western group, (if your two techs behind Persia) which means that a tech difference can be particularly devastating. The lower tech groups get new unit types less often which means that they're a bigger upgrade when they do. So if Persia crossed the right tech level there could be quite a dramatic difference in your pips.

I was Hindustan, and recently converted to western.

[WealthyRadish]

Lets just assume the best case scenario for them. They get an entirely new set of units in those 2 levels. That's all sorts of bonuses. But then I think of Native Americans. When you start fighting them they are pushovers, but would you fight a stack of 30 of them if they:

1) Had a stronger general

2) Had 7000 more troops then you

3) Had a river and terrain bonus

?

I feel that that would be risky, and that's with a huge tech advantage you get. Several units apart with many more ideas.

There's still always a mathematical reason for your losses, though. My guess is that those tech levels and their higher discipline are making the largest difference. If you've played as Japan fighting Ming in vanilla, it's a joke since you'll have a 35% discipline advantage (at least) and they never go for military tech. I watched two random no leader sieging infantry regiments fight off 15 regiments led by a general with 5 shock. Yeah. Whether that's realistic, I dunno, but I sure found it funny.

I'd look at your army composition, and if all else fails, make a doomstack with a full combat width of artillery, like 4 cavalry, and a couple combat widths of infantry and trick the AI into sending an army into it or a smaller bait army next to it.

[pedrito]

Well I'm fighting Persia (who somehow has tech rivaling western tech countries as a non-western tech country) And they are 2 tech levels above me in military and have a full offensive tree while I have half of it filled plus the first buff form the quality tree. I have a general that is just flat out better then them and get river and terrain bonuses in fights with many more men then them. Talking about 23 to 30.... They are still dominating. Even when I get +9 in dice rolls, they kill more guys. If I happen to get a bad dice roll (~ -5 compared to theirs) they destroy thousands of my men. And heck, I've seen thousands of my men disappear as soon as the battle begins. That seems way off to me, so could someone else give me their opinion?

-current military tech level? some jumps bigger than others, and 2 levels ahead can range anywhere between a solid advantage to a complete obliteration
-you tech group/unit group? muslim units are generally stronger than indian for example, and especially during certain stages of the game
-army composition? if they are fielding a lot more cavalry than you, early game, that will explain a lot
-actual leader stats? a flat out better leader, yes, but how many more shock and fire points does he actually have? early game ONLY shock is relevant
-your prestige vs theirs?
-your morale vs theirs?
-tactics?
-discipline?
-war exhaustion?

If you look into all of this I'm sure you will find an answer.

Quite honestly, an indian nation getting smashed by a muslim nation with a solid tech advantage and more military ideas is no surprise at all. Persia has a nice 5% discipline in their national ideas as well.

[Micro102]

Well if you read my second post you would see that I am western tech, had more men (I try to keep that twice as many soldiers as cavalry thing going, with cannons around the number of cavalry), a better general, +3 terrain advantage, and they had a maxed out offensive tree while I had half of it filled.

What wasn't mentioned was that the tech levels were 18 (me) vs 20 (Persia), that Persia was Muslim tech group, and that we were fighting with musket tech. I don't know about morale, just that both of our green bars were full when fighting. My prestige was in the 70's..... It felt like their 2 levels of military tech and their 4-5 offensive tree bonuses vs my superior numbers, units, tactics, and generals, which resulted in me losing EVERY. SINGLE. BATTLE. Bad roll? I lose 2000 guys a turn. Very good role? We both lose about the same amount of guys. See how it doesn't make sense?

[EnigmaticHat]

Check what units they're using, look them up on the internet.  Then check what unit you're using.  First of all they might have much better units than you.  Second of all, its possible that you'll do better on offense or defense, so its good to know.

[Tarran]

There's a nice chart on infantry pips updated for 1.6. Notice the gap between Western and Muslim at tech 20 and Western at tech 18.

Western does fare better at cav, though, even with a tech difference, but cav aren't often the main body of an army.

And while Arty remains the same for all tech groups, there is a gap between 18 and 20.



Not arguing, just providing data for the argument.

[Micro102]

It seems to balance out at around 3-4 more pips for their army.

Do those charts mean that for western tech, having 10 Inf and 9 cav makes your armies stronger then 12 inf 7 cav? Or 13 inf and 6 cav?

[Sindain]

Note that unless you were playing a mod or older version, wosternization doesn't give you western units, only western tech. In other words, you still had Indian units, even if you were paying western tech costs. Though according to the wiki you should have had equal cavalry and infantry, but worse artillery.

*edit*
Also they would have .5 higher tactics and .5 higher infantry fire.

[Micro102]

Regardless. No matter what has been presented so far, no matter how I try to justify all the possible advantages they could of had, 2000 units a turn doesn't add up.... But that gave me an idea. Is there a way to measure how much an advantage would be needed for a 2000 unit a turn difference? Perhaps a way to calculate it in just unit pips or numbers?