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[Mictlantecuhtli]

Isnt that what, in part drove japan to close its border and muder all the christians?

In game terms, this means Japan never has a real chance in hell of becoming equal or greater than 'proper' countries because of the +60% tech point cost from being 'Chinese'.

Basically, no matter if you're Japan or a vassal who eventually creates Japan, your game becomes unplayable at one point, or you have the choice of never catching up to the white nations due to built in limitations. I'd try another Asian nation but I have the feeling it'll be a similar outcome.

I just deleted the save entirely. I am saddened by these state of affairs.

Playing now as Byzantium to see if EU4s is as flavorless as EU3s vanilla Byzantium. Hoping not.

[Tarran]

It shouldn't be, it had a preorder DLC specifically on for it.

[Chaoswizkid]

This is done to hamstring players, since I'm aware I need to let my country turn Catholic as white = might in EU4 and will easily open the doors to westernization.

Okay, now you're just being annoying. Am I the only person who is okay with the historical accuracy of Westernization and am totally cool with playing non-western countries? I'm not saying that Paradox executed it correctly (I've already suggested potential changes to make it better), nor am I forgiving the bugs, but quite frankly I'm sick of the constant "white = might" and racist accusations of Paradox. Go read a history book and come back when you're doing being upset that Paradox included something that was historically accurate and maybe your hate will be accurately focused on just the bugs or inaccurate mechanics.

This is either an oversight, a bug, or deliberate, the fact that you cannot even allow your own country to convert. I bet they didn't even make events for a Catholic Japan, and just thought people wouldn't try to let it happen. So you can't do it, and tagged these harsh non-events on to make people change to a proper country, or be stuck as backwater-Japan forever. Sigh.

-snip-

Apparently, it's not working as intended, though. I looked it up and Japan appears to be bugged in this regard. It's somehow possible for them to convert to Catholicism, but the only evidence of that I saw was through an AI player, so *shrug*.

It's a bug. You wouldn't have to speculate if you either read what I had said, looked it up for yourself, or paused for a second to consider that you might be being unduly cruel in accusing Paradox of being short-sighted bigots.


I'm not making accusations based on your personal character or anything. I'm not attacking you, I'm just saying that you're being absolutely ridiculous and far too eager to hate-monger at Paradox over the game. Yeah, bugged releases suck. Yeah, being forced to abandon a play-through due to bugs also sucks. It's something that's incredibly frustrating, and I'd be in the same boat with you if I had continued my Japan game (which I'm not going to, because said bugs would make it unplayable, and thank you for revealing them to me and to the others), but try to be a little bit understanding that this isn't like most other games. Most other games have a singular experience for every player and bugs are often unforgivable because how could they possibly miss it? Grand Strategy games from Paradox offer unique experiences for every player, and yeah there's likely going to be tons of overlap, but given the number of countries, events, countries later created by events, etc., it's understandable that not everything is going to be tested and there's going to be some shitty bugs for some people. Even so, you're still justified in being upset with them over bugs, but please don't continue to mix that frustration up with accusations of their character.

[werty892]

This is done to hamstring players, since I'm aware I need to let my country turn Catholic as white = might in EU4 and will easily open the doors to westernization.

Okay, now you're just being annoying. Am I the only person who is okay with the historical accuracy of Westernization and am totally cool with playing non-western countries? I'm not saying that Paradox executed it correctly (I've already suggested potential changes to make it better), nor am I forgiving the bugs, but quite frankly I'm sick of the constant "white = might" and racist accusations of Paradox. Go read a history book and come back when you're doing being upset that Paradox included something that was historically accurate and maybe your hate will be accurately focused on just the bugs or inaccurate mechanics.

This is completely right, white=might is accurate. If you don't like it, mod the game to have everyone start western.

[Chaoswizkid]

This is completely right, white=might is accurate. If you don't like it, mod the game to have everyone start western.

-.-

White = might is not accurate. The people of Europe were the most technologically advanced and continued to be the most technologically advanced and pretty much the only thing that is different in modern times is even more westernization, especially of Japan and China. For whatever reason, whether it be religious unity, the fact that their languages had a lot in common due to the existence of the Roman Empire, that they had powerful trading empires, or were very interested in innovation, Europe was the most technologically advanced. They could have been African or Asian or even Crayola Mountain Meadow in color, but no, they were white and that has absolutely nothing to do with why they were technologically advanced or that other countries and areas, such as the Middle East and China that were once technologically superior, became technologically inferior.

People are upset that the mechanics are bugged, that they can be unfun or that they aren't being historically fair, and that there isn't enough opportunity to really take history into their own hands and have an appropriately ahistoric game. They're right about all that. What people aren't right about is the racism.

[LordSlowpoke]

it's certainly telling something of society when this series could go 12 years before being raged about for its supposed racism and the fact it's bugged at release (people being surprised by the bugs at release must be new to the studio i guess)

[EnigmaticHat]

I think accusing Paradox of racism is a bit unfair, at least if EU4 was made by the same guys who made CK2.  The majority of non-whites in CK2 are Muslim (with a few Pagans and Zoarastrians) and Muslims are capable of absolutely wrecking Catholicism in that game, arguably to an ahistorical extent.  Its not unheard of to see Muslims dominate everything except the HRE and Britain.

As for the Japan glitches... yeah that does suck, but at least its not EU3 Japan.  That was an unplayable mess after they released an expansion specifically to improve Asian nations and hordes.

On an unrelated note I ragequit my Venice game, for reasons that have nothing to do with EU4.  The Ottomans waged war on me and I can't transport armies effectively because I only have 10 transports, I can't make more because my fleet can't beat the Ottomans even currently, and I can't walk over there because Austria owns one province in the way and I don't have military access.  But because both me and my coalition have provinces by the Ottomans, they can attack us :/

[Shooer]

Well I seem to have avoided these game breaking bugs as Japan.  Happily spreading Shinto east across California and heading towards the Mississippi river.

Westernizing at this point I would never catch up to Spain, France or Britain.  But I don't have to, I can exploit the already existing diplomatic scene in Europe to play the three against each other and sweep up the weaker colonies.  If I did westernize I would do it so I would out match the rest of Asia and conquer mainland Asia.  China has been eating it's self apart (with my help) so they are all ripe to be brought under a better single government, and I could finally reunite Korea under a single banner (let's not go into the fact I took all of south and east Korea).

[MoLAoS]

Westernizing is irrelevant for Asian countries. Do you expect to be able to crush France or something? If not, ignore it, ignore western Europe. Easties have nerfs too, and they are white, so you have a chance against them. Plus, you can just dominate the fuck out of Asia, Africa, and the Americas without really having to deal with major western nations.

Plus Europe hates each other so they are so busy fighting that they almost never have the capability to fight a serious war against you.

[Eagle_eye]

The problem is that Europe didn't have to be more technologically advanced, it just turned out that way. It's like designing the game so that every colonizing country gets a huge malus to colonial growth in every region they didn't colonize historically. Sure, it produces historical results, but we don't want historical results, we want plausible responses to the player's actions. There's no reason that China couldn't have turned around and become a technological powerhouse again: after all, Europe went through a much longer period of stagnation. They just didn't.

[MoLAoS]

The problem is that Europe didn't have to be more technologically advanced, it just turned out that way. It's like designing the game so that every colonizing country gets a huge malus to colonial growth in every region they didn't colonize historically. Sure, it produces historical results, but we don't want historical results, we want plausible responses to the player's actions. There's no reason that China couldn't have turned around and become a technological powerhouse again: after all, Europe went through a much longer period of stagnation. They just didn't.

Yeah but its not all about the player. In fact Westernizing IS the chance for the player to turn things around. Its extremely historical in and of itself. Russia and Japan really did westernize at the behest of specific leaders. But not for many years. Plus, early on in the game the Eastern powers are actually better in some ways, which is why they don't just westernize right away.

You can do plenty of ahistorical nation building within the current mechanics without westernizing. Japan just isn't going to stomp the world within the timeframe of EU4. You can westernize much easier in Vicky2 and conquer the world as an Asian power though, because its temporally accurate for that possibility.

[Eagle_eye]

You're missing the point: there shouldn't be a need to "westernize". There's nothing about European culture that makes it inherently vastly superior at technological development: just look at what China was like during Europe's middle ages. It's pretty obvious that whatever the root cause of technological development in this time period is, it isn't anything inherent to a group of people. You can say that Japan isn't going to stomp the world, but from the perspective of someone in 1444, it's equally impossible that France, a divided and poorly administered nation that barely managed to fight off the English, would, in a few hundred years, almost conquer all of Europe. The only reason history seems plausible is that it actually happened.

[loose nut]

I dunno, Paradox games try to hew closer to how history played out and that's their whole approach so they code in a lot of things like tech groups as fait accompli. Civ games work more from the premise that anything is possible given the resources, culture is almost entirely malleable, and they do not care about trying to replicate how history happened.

It can be interesting to see how fans of either of these two series approach historical questions.

[Catastrophic lolcats]

China had a large degree of problems that lead to the decline of the Ming dynasty and the rise of the Qing dynasty. First of all was the concept of inward perfection which was caused by Confucianist conservatism infiltrating the administration. Technological development was completely stagnant and due to natural borders and a lack of communication with other nations so was cultural development. The sinking of Zheng He's treasure fleet much earlier had already poisoned the Chinese view of naval exploration and with it all care of other cultures.
 
Add to this a corrupt and ineffective administrative bathed in traditions and rituals, a miniature ice age that completely change the agricultural make up, long drawn out wars with the Japanese, a lack of control over their own armies and taxation, and finally the nomadic invaders wanting to capitalise on weakness.
Ming was in a bad place and any emperor who wanted to try and turn it around would have likely been seen as a complete tyrant who would have soon lost the mandate of heaven and have his own people turn against him.

Westernising to me does make sense. However I don't like how other countries have monarch point maluses just because they're not European, that's really silly. The ultimate system is to just give every region their own tech tree. You should be able to see the Aztecs when left to their own devices start to embrace metal weapons as the Mayas slowly were. China when left alone should slowly develop towards hand-artilitarly, Indians embracing primitive cannons and muskets.
Technology should really just be a trade good. Gunpowder should move out of China and sent to Europe and India through the Mongols. That gunpowder tech is slowly embraced and advanced on by the Western Europeans which is sent out to the muslims and eastern europeans. Colonisation era starts pushing technology all over the world and countries that embrace "western ideals" can start to reform their armies more organically.

[MoLAoS]

You're missing the point: there shouldn't be a need to "westernize". There's nothing about European culture that makes it inherently vastly superior at technological development: just look at what China was like during Europe's middle ages. It's pretty obvious that whatever the root cause of technological development in this time period is, it isn't anything inherent to a group of people. You can say that Japan isn't going to stomp the world, but from the perspective of someone in 1444, it's equally impossible that France, a divided and poorly administered nation that barely managed to fight off the English, would, in a few hundred years, almost conquer all of Europe. The only reason history seems plausible is that it actually happened.

Medieval Euro culture wasn't great. It was the spread away from it that made them superior. Increased social and economic freedom and so forth. That's what westernize means. Historically real life nations that really called it westernizing westernized and became more powerful. They literally copied aspects of western european culture.

As far as it not being inherent to a certain group of people, are you ignorant or something? There is nothing specific about a given ethnic group certainly, but cultural differences are HUGE. Seriously. Why do you think America took off as western Europe slowed down? Cultural changes.

What slowed down the Japanese was very specific elements of medieval Japanese culture. They began to become more powerful as they westernized, in real life that is what Japan did. And much later than 1444. The same thing happened to Russia.

Its almost like you think people are saying the Chinese genome is inferior or something stupid like that when its all about cultural attitudes. China pursued a policy of isolationism and tradition around the period of this game after previously being at the forefront of naval trade.

"After Zheng He's voyages in the 15th century, the foreign policy of the Ming Dynasty in China became increasingly isolationist. Emperor Hongwu was the first to propose the policy to ban all maritime shipping in 1371.[2] The Qing Dynasty that came after the Ming often continued the latter dynasty's isolationist policies. Wokou or Japanese pirates were one of the key primary concerns, although the maritime ban was not without some control."-Wikipedia

I remember this because I did my world history project on Zheng He freshmen year of highschool. I honestly just know the Russian part because I had a big personal historical phase.

Essentially China specifically closed itself off almost exactly as the time people of Europa Universalis began.

Post below appears to have gone in way more detail on the same point.

Paradox make HISTORICAL grand strategy games and if you would to lead an eastern asian nation to world technological dominance all you have to do is make a simple fucking mod starting yourself as westernized. Problem solved.