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[MrWiggles]

I think just having every tech cost 999 points is enough, making it harder to do anything at all is just ridiculous. It's tied to the eurocentric idea that european forms of government are magically superior than native american forms of government, despite the existence of the Aztecs, Incans, Iroquois, Powhatan's empire...

Better? Eh...

But it was a reality that the native americans were stagnant a in neolithic era. And the game tries to replicate that.

[Rakonas]

I think just having every tech cost 999 points is enough, making it harder to do anything at all is just ridiculous. It's tied to the eurocentric idea that european forms of government are magically superior than native american forms of government, despite the existence of the Aztecs, Incans, Iroquois, Powhatan's empire...

Better? Eh...

But it was a reality that the native americans were stagnant a in neolithic era. And the game tries to replicate that.

But that's not actually true, ask people who study the native americans. They weren't stagnant, but they had a significantly delayed start (Agriculture developed ~9000BCE in Mesopotamia, but only ~3500BCE in Mesoamerica) and developed differently. The game shouldn't try to replicate something like the native americans being totally stagnant because... they weren't. If anything, the game should just replicate how anywhere from 50-95% of the population of the americas died soon after european contact.

[Sergarr]

More games need to simulate the real effect of mass infections and biological weapons.

[Pnx]

Compared to the pace europe was moving at they were pretty damn stagnant.

I mean in theory any group of people no matter how primitive will eventually draw forward in technology, but it can take a long time for the ball to get rolling.

I really wouldn't have expected the native americans to have moved a comparable pace to the europeans technologically in this timeframe. Though yeah, getting killed off en-mass probably didn't help.

[MrWiggles]

I think just having every tech cost 999 points is enough, making it harder to do anything at all is just ridiculous. It's tied to the eurocentric idea that european forms of government are magically superior than native american forms of government, despite the existence of the Aztecs, Incans, Iroquois, Powhatan's empire...

Better? Eh...

But it was a reality that the native americans were stagnant a in neolithic era. And the game tries to replicate that.

But that's not actually true, ask people who study the native americans. They weren't stagnant, but they had a significantly delayed start (Agriculture developed ~9000BCE in Mesopotamia, but only ~3500BCE in Mesoamerica) and developed differently. The game shouldn't try to replicate something like the native americans being totally stagnant because... they weren't. If anything, the game should just replicate how anywhere from 50-95% of the population of the americas died soon after european contact.

The game doesnt force them to be stagnant, to my understand, it just artificially retards their progress.

And I know they were making improvements, but they werent the same forward progress technologically, that europe was, or even far east was. And there reason for that, there wasn't as much competition as there was in Europe, they didnt make as much use of animal power or domestication. They were were understandalbe reasons why they progressed slower, just that in the tools that EU has, you can't really represent that.

You also can't really present the lack of immunization of the north americans to euro centric diseases.

[Chaoswizkid]

EU isn't euro-centric because the developers are biased, EU is euro-centric because, historically (and this is a historical game), technology was euro-centric. Despite the Chinese having a leg up on everyone, despite the Mongols taking over a bunch of the known world, despite the Aztecs and Mayans and Incas, the European powers at the time period we're dealing with had the best stuff. The Native Americans didn't magically have cannons and guns, which is why they were ultimately pushed out of their ancestral lands. They never even had the technology to produce cannons and guns, they just traded for them or looted them.

Britain and Portugal owned Hong Kong and Macau of China, respectively, because they were able to dominate trade because the Chinese lacked the capacity to do so (mostly due to their isolationist policies stagnating everything). Portugal, Spain, Britain, the Netherlands and later the United States were able to bully Japan around economically because Japan lacked the technology to really do anything against them. Heck, Portugal basically owned Nagasaki. The Middle East is no longer the jewel it once was, and North Africa has long since lost its luster. Even much later, India was subjugated with the clever use of flags (ha, Eddie Izzard). Heck, even in WW2 the West was technologically superior to the East (again with government policy, though). After considerable Western influence, though, the playing field was evened out. This is modeled rather accurately in the EU games. Everyone who isn't the West needs to Westernize if they want the best tech. Those wishing for AU history get it in pretty much everything but tech, although that can happen as well.

So yeah, before you blame the historic empire simulator for being euro-centric, blame reality.

[Twiggie]

New dev diary yesterday, with some cool diplomacy/AI stuff. That's here

Also, another plug for my MP game, signups here.

[Rakonas]

EU isn't euro-centric because the developers are biased, EU is euro-centric because, historically (and this is a historical game), technology was euro-centric. Despite the Chinese having a leg up on everyone, despite the Mongols taking over a bunch of the known world, despite the Aztecs and Mayans and Incas, the European powers at the time period we're dealing with had the best stuff. The Native Americans didn't magically have cannons and guns, which is why they were ultimately pushed out of their ancestral lands. They never even had the technology to produce cannons and guns, they just traded for them or looted them.

Britain and Portugal owned Hong Kong and Macau of China, respectively, because they were able to dominate trade because the Chinese lacked the capacity to do so (mostly due to their isolationist policies stagnating everything). Portugal, Spain, Britain, the Netherlands and later the United States were able to bully Japan around economically because Japan lacked the technology to really do anything against them. Heck, Portugal basically owned Nagasaki. The Middle East is no longer the jewel it once was, and North Africa has long since lost its luster. Even much later, India was subjugated with the clever use of flags (ha, Eddie Izzard). Heck, even in WW2 the West was technologically superior to the East (again with government policy, though). After considerable Western influence, though, the playing field was evened out. This is modeled rather accurately in the EU games. Everyone who isn't the West needs to Westernize if they want the best tech. Those wishing for AU history get it in pretty much everything but tech, although that can happen as well.

So yeah, before you blame the historic empire simulator for being euro-centric, blame reality.

Your points are all valid, but it doesn't change the fact that the implementation of a monarch point penalty (and monarch points are used for EVERYTHING, not just tech) for native american governments alone is seriously hamfisted.

[Chosrau]

Native Amercian Governments aren't the only ones with a penalty, just the harshest one (-2). Though the African tribes may have the same penatlies.

[Catastrophic lolcats]

I don't think it makes sense for the Mesoamericans to have the monarch penalty. They were a series of city states with literacy and sophisticated diplomacy that would subjugate and vassalise neighbouring city states and tribes. Their governments also had some administrative influences, arguably more than the majority of European states at the time. Having a tech malus and their own tech group is more than enough.

The only case I think you can make for the monarch point penalty is real tribal "nations" to abstract just how hard reforming and changing beliefs were in these particular governments, although tribal governments are really bad already and making them weaker might not be the best idea.

[Dutchling]

Meh, looks okay to me. Wesnernization seems a lot easier now anyway, as you just need a neighbour who is far ahead of you and +3 stability to jump instantly to the Western Techgroup.

[Chosrau]

A system I utterly despise. The more backwards you are, the more easily you can westernize is pretty dumb.

[Dutchling]

True, but you either have playable New World nations or a good Westerniation process.

[Chosrau]

They could just implement several different way to westernize. But the way it is now I don't think you will ever manage to westernize with Russia or the Ottomans.

[Dutchling]

How so? Just spend all your points on ideas and insta-westernize once you're far enough behind. It's not like they ever did westernize in the time frame anyway.