Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 ... 155 156 [157] 158 159 ... 216

Author Topic: Europa Universalis IV  (Read 465220 times)

Sergarr

  • Bay Watcher
  • (9) airheaded baka (9)
    • View Profile
Re: Europa Universalis IV
« Reply #2340 on: December 05, 2015, 06:39:17 pm »

Coring costs, overextension, and wealth feedback can all be balanced separately. My complaint is that the current development system leads to OPMs becoming sprawling metropolises, while larger countries might have a small town here and there.
As far as I see, this is actually the intended behaviour. Remember, "tall" must be competitive with "wide", and this means the "tall" provinces should be much much better than "wide" ones.
Logged
._.

Catastrophic lolcats

  • Bay Watcher
  • [FORTRESSDESTROYER:2]
    • View Profile
Re: Europa Universalis IV
« Reply #2341 on: December 05, 2015, 07:07:19 pm »

As far as I see, this is actually the intended behaviour. Remember, "tall" must be competitive with "wide", and this means the "tall" provinces should be much much better than "wide" ones.
Why though? How many examples of a "tall" country existed? Many people will cite the maritime republics like Venice or Genoa as "tall" nations but they completely ignore how expansive these countries were, swallowing and bullying weaker nations not just militarily but also economically.

In my eyes the difference between tall and wide should come down to centralisation. A smaller nation ruling over a homogeneous population is more easily able to optimise administrative processes and resource distribution. Being able to invest in projects that will benefit more of their population and losing less resources to third parties like nobles.
There's still a limit on just how optimised you could get these systems and just conquering your neighbours and taking all their stuff will likely still be preferable (if you can maintain control over that territory) but not everyone should be in a position where that is possible (expansion in EU4 is way too easy).

This fascination with a small nation being able to completely compete on all levels with a big one is just bizarre to me (was it Civ5 that started this?). Just sitting around, doing nothing and staying small shouldn't give you any advantages aside from avoiding the negatives of expansion. Players should still have to expand their economy and influence other countries if they wish to expand their power in any meaningful way or even stay relevant.
Ducats combines with a centralisation mechanic that punishes large countries for blobbing too big and too greedily seems like the only logical way of handling development. 
Logged

Sergarr

  • Bay Watcher
  • (9) airheaded baka (9)
    • View Profile
Re: Europa Universalis IV
« Reply #2342 on: December 06, 2015, 05:23:04 am »

As far as I see, this is actually the intended behaviour. Remember, "tall" must be competitive with "wide", and this means the "tall" provinces should be much much better than "wide" ones.
Why though?
Don't ask me, I too consider the idea that small countries should be competitive with big ones for no apparent reason as dumb as hell, but it's a pretty popular meme among current strategy gaming scene (just google "tall vs wide" to see the extent of the problem) and it's going to be forced on us until it dies off.
Logged
._.

Flying Dice

  • Bay Watcher
  • inveterate shitposter
    • View Profile
Re: Europa Universalis IV
« Reply #2343 on: December 06, 2015, 08:30:23 am »

But the Winter War :^)
Logged


Aurora on small monitors:
1. Game Parameters -> Reduced Height Windows.
2. Lock taskbar to the right side of your desktop.
3. Run Resize Enable

Sergarr

  • Bay Watcher
  • (9) airheaded baka (9)
    • View Profile
Re: Europa Universalis IV
« Reply #2344 on: December 06, 2015, 09:02:23 am »

But the Winter War :^)
You mean that war that Finland lost in far less than a year despite defending a nearly perfect choke-point in an extremely rugged terrain in deep winter against an army that have had barely any competent leadership left after the purges? :^)
Logged
._.

Kot

  • Bay Watcher
  • 2 Patriotic 4 U
    • View Profile
    • Tiny Pixel Soldiers
Re: Europa Universalis IV
« Reply #2345 on: December 06, 2015, 09:10:39 am »

Also against an country fifty times it's size, with an army with over three times the numbers as theirs, almost 40 times as many planes and over 100-200 times the number of tanks while inflicting five times the casualties it suffered...
In my opinion, they did pretty damn well.
Logged
Kot finishes his morning routine in the same way he always does, by burning a scale replica of Saint Basil's Cathedral on the windowsill.

Sergarr

  • Bay Watcher
  • (9) airheaded baka (9)
    • View Profile
Re: Europa Universalis IV
« Reply #2346 on: December 06, 2015, 09:19:47 am »

Also against an country fifty times it's size, with an army with over three times the numbers as theirs, almost 40 times as many planes and over 100-200 times the number of tanks while inflicting five times the casualties it suffered...
In my opinion, they did pretty damn well.
So, you agree that "tall empires" shouldn't realistically exist or be supported in strategy games, since they can be easily conquered by "wide empires"?
Logged
._.

Majestic7

  • Bay Watcher
  • Invokes Yog-Soggoth to bend time
    • View Profile
Re: Europa Universalis IV
« Reply #2347 on: December 06, 2015, 09:24:05 am »

You can't honestly argue that Finland was ever a "tall" country. In the 1930s it was one of the poorest countries in Europe.

If you want a better example, Netherlands did pretty good for a century or so in the 1700s. I think "tall" powers are okay as a concept as long as they are fragile, since that is always the problem. They lack the depth and width to take damage, whether that damage is political, economic or military losses. Usually it only takes one major disaster to drop them down for good.
Logged

Flying Dice

  • Bay Watcher
  • inveterate shitposter
    • View Profile
Re: Europa Universalis IV
« Reply #2348 on: December 06, 2015, 09:36:18 am »

Yeah, joking aside, that's the thing: they have to be tall in soft power. It's reasonable for a tiny but well-developed state to be a trade hub, urbanized, highly wealthy, technologically advanced, &c., because those are things which are made easier by having little territory to manage (so long as you aren't isolated or constantly under attack). If you're a OPM in a good location with solid diplomatic ties, yeah, sure. If you've got enough provinces that you need to count them to remember how many there are, it's more difficult to achieve that same level of power concentration and centralization, simply because you can't devote anywhere close to 100% of your resources to building up a single province, while a OPM does so by default.

What doesn't make sense is for them to be military powerhouses capable of effectively fighting other states that are more than 4-5x their size, never mind sprawling blobpires.
Logged


Aurora on small monitors:
1. Game Parameters -> Reduced Height Windows.
2. Lock taskbar to the right side of your desktop.
3. Run Resize Enable

Loud Whispers

  • Bay Watcher
  • They said we have to aim higher, so we dug deeper.
    • View Profile
    • I APPLAUD YOU SIRRAH
Re: Europa Universalis IV
« Reply #2349 on: December 06, 2015, 09:44:52 am »

As far as I see, this is actually the intended behaviour. Remember, "tall" must be competitive with "wide", and this means the "tall" provinces should be much much better than "wide" ones.
Why though?
Don't ask me, I too consider the idea that small countries should be competitive with big ones for no apparent reason as dumb as hell, but it's a pretty popular meme among current strategy gaming scene (just google "tall vs wide" to see the extent of the problem) and it's going to be forced on us until it dies off.
I suppose one good example would be Germany vs the great blobs of the USSR and the British Empire, which is as small vs blobby as you can get. Even still that one was about a small nation having an advantage but deeming being blobby as necessary for its continued power. I could see some value in at least having momentary advantages over expanding nations... Until they finish expanding.

On that note my Nepal Empire run has entered a very interesting stage; the Roman Empire collapsed.
The Austrians, Saxons, Huns and Sarmatians were the first to invade the Roman Empire, the Romans could have held off longer if the Greeks and Persians had not also attacked and destroyed their Arab vassal. The Iberian peninsula held on for longer for it was infested with animist rebels, eventually it too fell to the Germanic hordes. With most of Europe in a state of fucked or soon to be fucked, Emperor Vitellius Ostorius made the bold move to move the capital from Rome to Alexandria at the age of 16; shortly before Germanic pagans sacked Rome. North Africa was quite Roman, with an exception to the Western half which had been taken over by a great Berber tribe. Emperor Vitellius was an absolute genius in all fields of governance, including the all important military strategy. There was hope for Rome. For many years the resistance in Alexandria held out against unbeatable odds, not least of all because the Romans found an unusual ally.
Emperor Rajandralakshmi Chola of the Nepalese Empire sent 26,000 swordsmen and 8,000 war elephants to Alexandria and crushed the various rebels plaguing the last of the Roman Empire. When the Saxons first hit North Africa the Nepalese and Roman forces fought bloodily to the last man, losing much of North Africa but keeping Egypt safe. In the second war Rajandralakshmi sent another 32,000 swordsmen and 10,000 war elephants - this time the Saxons were only stopped at Egypt itself, with the last Roman Legion of Nepal holding the Suez. After the third war Rajandralakshmi withdrew the only surviving units back to India, the 2nd Rome Legion and another amalgamation of units who did not survive in full strength or never made it to Egypt in time; once the Suez fell there would be no way to bring Nepalese soldiers home.
The alliance was dissolved and a heartbroken Emperor Vitellius died. The Saxons pillaged Egypt and the Berbers invaded Corsica, what surviving remnants of the Romans departed for Jerusalem and Damascus where they were outnumbered by the Chalcedonians who they had previously successfully suppressed. The Hellenistic Greeks to the North began eyeing the last pickings of their old foe with relish.
Rajandralakshmi would shed no tears for Rome (though his Roman wife did), as the Parthian Empire launched a fullscale war against the Nepalese Empire to prevent it from taking over the last independent states in India. The Persians, their nomadic allies and their coalition had superior soldiers, technology, tactics and commanders. The Nepalese Empire and their ally the Han Empire had the advantage of numbers. 250,000 Persians up against 500,000 Nepalese, Chinese, Bengali, Afghan and Tibetan soldiers, fighting the bloodiest battles the world had ever seen since the fall of Rome.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

WealthyRadish

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Europa Universalis IV
« Reply #2350 on: December 06, 2015, 02:20:20 pm »

I suppose one good example would be Germany vs the great blobs of the USSR and the British Empire, which is as small vs blobby as you can get. Even still that one was about a small nation having an advantage but deeming being blobby as necessary for its continued power. I could see some value in at least having momentary advantages over expanding nations... Until they finish expanding.

Germany sounds like a really bad example for "building tall". Prussia became the most militarily powerful nation in Europe by conquering or otherwise absorbing most of Germany and the late HRE, not by staying small and building up.

Logged

Loud Whispers

  • Bay Watcher
  • They said we have to aim higher, so we dug deeper.
    • View Profile
    • I APPLAUD YOU SIRRAH
Re: Europa Universalis IV
« Reply #2351 on: December 06, 2015, 06:54:34 pm »

Ok point taken. Also Netherlands wasn't a small Empire by any stretch; the Dutch Empire was nothing to fuck around with (until suddenly Japanese)

Lapoleon

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Europa Universalis IV
« Reply #2352 on: December 07, 2015, 10:43:34 am »

But the main thing about playing tall has never been that a power with only two or three provinces could beat a sprawling empire. It has specifically been added to allow some form of growth that does not consist of conquering more territories. You might call it "developing" your provinces :-) It was added to simulate areas like the Netherlands or rich mercantile areas. The main problems with development is not that it can't keep up with wide empires but that you end up with overdeveloped microstates. This has now been solved partly by capping the coring cost, but it still is a drain on the MP spending of the AI.
Logged

Sergarr

  • Bay Watcher
  • (9) airheaded baka (9)
    • View Profile
Re: Europa Universalis IV
« Reply #2353 on: December 07, 2015, 01:22:04 pm »

There are already forms of growth that do not consist of conquering more territories that are far more interesting than "click a button" development. Research is one, trading is two, diplomacy and political agreements is three.

The only possible reason I see to add development to these ones is because the aforementioned forms of growth require too much time to properly carry out during a typical fast MP game, and as we all know, fast MP games is the only way of testing Johan knows.
Logged
._.

MrRoboto75

  • Bay Watcher
  • Belongs in the Trash!
    • View Profile
Re: Europa Universalis IV
« Reply #2354 on: December 07, 2015, 01:33:58 pm »

To be fair, the easiest way to get more trade power is to conquer and control more of a particular trade node.
Logged
I consume
I purchase
I consume again
Pages: 1 ... 155 156 [157] 158 159 ... 216