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[Toaster]

Dariush:

You are completely right! There were eighteen posts on D1 since my last post there! Except the absolute majority of those were discussing either Book's WoTs or borno's fuck-ups. So no, not really a lot to make a case from. Do you think otherwise?

Yes, I do.  I think there's plenty of content out there (those posts included) for you to formulate a case instead of vague speculation against anyone else.

For example, what's your read on the me/Jim/Book bit?


Shakerag:

Toaster: Given the miller claim and his chatty-ness this game, how does Bookthras come across as scum to you?  To me it feels like he's town, maaaaybe a survivor.  Especially given how he was acting when D1 was supposedly going to end.  I think Bookthras is enough of a big boy to not seriously try and bullshit a "when I flip town ... " story. 

I disagree with your read on Book.  He loves his drama and loves the spotlight.  Hamming it up when he's got the spotlight fits entirely within my meta read of him.  That, with his acting on gut over case, his hilariously bad attempt to label my vote as a bandwagon, and now his uncharacteristic clamming up come D2, gives me plenty of reason to vote him.

Do you have an actual case on me or are you just pressuring me?

[Hapah]

PFP

Book: On ZU: I don't follow the chainsaw argument. I need to see if I can follow how he came to that conclusion. The vote on borno was weak; but I can believe that RL got in the way.

On suspicions: Dar looks a little suspect, but I'd like to see how this discussion between him and UI plays out before I pass judgment.

Toaster: I never said that "more aggressive than usual" was bad, only unusual. It caught my attention, is all.

[Bookthras]

Imiknorris:

Merely well timed.

How so?

The timing is curious because it was close enough to end of day to make it stick with little risk of counterargument, far enough not to be a last minute vote. But the scummier thing about it is not the timing, but the reasons: "not paying attention" is insufficient reason for a third-on-bandwagon decisive vote -- the timing and lack of questions just make it clearer that it was to clinch a mislynch rather than to pose a case or hunt for reactions.

But he defended against that with the following, please compare it to his last comment on me:

Also, I like how you accuse me of being some sort of mastermind who can "carefully time" when he can get on to vote. I voted you then because that is when you became voteworthy- no invention on your part will change that. Speaking of my case, as of when the vote was cast, your lack of attention was the main selling point on the vote.

Note the "it was coincidence" aspect on it, while calling me for "uncharacteristically clamming up", and his utter lack of a case ("became voteworthy"... why? not paying attention?). But to address directly:

Toaster:

He loves his drama and loves the spotlight.  Hamming it up when he's got the spotlight fits entirely within my meta read of him.

I do love the drama thing, and enjoy the spotlight, sure, but notice how it fits within his "meta", not "scum meta" read of me; i.e., I do love the drama regardless of alignment, on all games, so how does he read that as part of his "case"?

That, with his acting on gut over case, his hilariously bad attempt to label my vote as a bandwagon,

a) my case was posted even before I cited gut, unlike your "meta and not paying attention" lack of a case; b) it was a third on bandwagon vote, with no reason or case beyond "not paying attention", that is a bandwagon vote under any definition.

his uncharacteristic clamming up come D2, gives me plenty of reason to vote him.

I like how you accuse me of being some sort of mastermind who can "carefully time" when he can get on to post. As you know, some days I'm busier than others. Yesterday I was busy, and still made a couple of posts. There's no clamming up except in your imagination; your trying to add this spurious bit to your "case" is scummy as well.


Jim: please post your additional suspicions, your read of Imiknorris, and whether wuba's answers clarified in your mind whether an SK exists.

Hapah: Please cite your top scum pick, state a case on them, and cast a vote. This reluctance of yours to cast a friggin' vote is scummy and counterproductive. You can't apply pressure or hunt properly without voting, and just as important, you can't allow people to get a read on you if you fail to post a case or cast a vote. Get involved and take a stance.

[Hapah]

Book: I'm PFP so I can't write a big post, but I'll say that it looks to me that yourself and UI are getting the better end of your respective arguments. I'm more confident of Dar; you and Toaster both seem like you are just grasping at straws.

UI: What about the parts of Dar's post that you didn't bold? Have you addressed those previously?

[Hapah]

Book, Toaster: I really feel you both might be well served to take a step back and look at why you're voting the other. D1 looked like you had reasons (not going into the validity of any of those reasons) to vote, but D2 it really looks like you're trying to find the reasons to justify the vote instead of letting the vote be determined by the reasons. It really feels like you're both following through for the sake of following through, and not because you've got anything to go on.

UI: Question below still stands.

Dar: Why have you been so combative? How are you so certain of UI's scumness? Why the tunneling double standard?

[Urist Imiknorris]

UI: What about the parts of Dar's post that you didn't bold? Have you addressed those previously?

In a way. The first was not addressed specifically at him, but it was addressed, and he has so far failed to actually follow up on that in any meaningful way. The second is too stupid for me to actually take seriously until he explains why it was scummy (as I asked him to do in my last post). The third... Actually, I don't know what the fuck is up with the third one. I thought it was just an extension of his lambasting me for my vote on borno, but looking back I noticed that he never actually asked me a question about it in the first place.

UI: Question below still stands.

You mean above?

[Bookthras]

Book, Toaster: I really feel you both might be well served to take a step back and look at why you're voting the other. [...] It really feels like you're both following through for the sake of following through, and not because you've got anything to go on.

OK, then: Hapah: you are scum. For these reasons:

a) Your jumping on the same bandwagon as Toaster late D1, with the only stated reason that I had not posted a case, then I pointed you to it, you saw it, but left the (now reasonless) vote on regardless. Your reasonless bandwagon post is scummy for the same reason Toaster's is (tries to secure a mislynch, or in your case, a nolynch as well).

b) Your failing to act regarding the tie Think's unvote created immediately after your vote, so close to end of day. You were on and active, but failed to either move or justify your vote, thus giving tacit support to a D1 nolynch knowing it'd be bad for town; it would have ended like that were it not for Jim heckling Tiruin.

c) The most damning: this time I called your reluctance to cast a vote scummy.... and your response was to jump in and stop doing the thing perceived as scummy. That's what scum do when called on scummy behaviour. Your lack of voting until day end is consistent with your town meta (but it shouldn't be; I mean it when I say you should vote more actively and be more involved, just get used to do it throughout the game) but in this case it was clearly a reaction to being called scummy.

Yeah, I think you are scum.

Also wuba: is Think0028 still up for replacement? If so, please note it on the thread title, or one may never come. And a vote count would be nice.

[webadict]

Mod: Did Tiruin know who the serial killer was? Did the SK know Tiruin was a SK-ally?

I cannot answer that as I'm not Tiruin. I also cannot answer the second question.

General case then - would an SK ally be told who the SK is? Would the SK be told Tiruin was an ally?

Generally, an Ally is not told who belongs to their alignment, nor vice versa. That's all I can answer.

Also wuba: is Think0028 still up for replacement? If so, please note it on the thread title, or one may never come. And a vote count would be nice.

He is. It was my mistake for not listing it. And I'll have a vote count up later tonight.

[zombie urist]

Book: I'm PFP so I can't write a big post, but I'll say that it looks to me that yourself and UI are getting the better end of your respective arguments. I'm more confident of Dar; you and Toaster both seem like you are just grasping at straws.

Can you explain what this means?

Great! Now why are you continuing to sit there and bark back at me instead of doing something about those suspicions? I don't remember you adressing either of those people over the entirety of the game.

Obvious deflection? Please answer this question you proposed.

Now be a chum and name at least two suspects.

Top choice is still Jim, mostly for his tunnely attack thingies. I also don't like the BS pressure vote thing from D1. And I don't understand the reasoning in this post.

I like how you do things publicly which could just as easily be done by PM to the mod.
Which means this is just for show. Your spot in the noose is well earned.

[Jim Groovester]

Are you trying to suggest that there isn't an SK?

No. It would be pretty silly not to think there was one.

But I did want to know if it was possible that there isn't one. It's sort of like in BMs how it's possible for a Roleblocker to exist without any town power roles for him to block or a Godfather to exist without there being a Cop. The existence of a role doesn't necessarily imply the existence of other roles.

But then you'll say, "But, Jim, how is an SK-ally supposed to win without a SK?" to which I respond, "Yes, that's an excellent point, and is very likely the case, but this is a WUBA game, and I won't take the existence of an SK through SK-ally for granted."

Jim:  How many instances of "scum claiming miller" can you recall?

Off the top of my head, in Bastard Paranormal 1, Bookthras claimed miller when he was a dirty fucking dopp. I'm pretty certain that there have been a few other instances in a few Paranormals, none of them recent, but I can't recall which games.

So it's happened, but I do think it's rare.

But I don't know what point you're trying to make, since my vote on Bookthras has never been about his miller claim. If your point was that scum fakeclaiming miller is rare and unlikely, well, you couldn't have picked a worse person to make that point on behalf of.

You're paying startlingly little attention to the thread, you know that?

Jim: please post your additional suspicions, your read of Imiknorris, and whether wuba's answers clarified in your mind whether an SK exists.

zombie urist for making a lousy argument about me chainsawing, then far behind him Shakerag for not paying attention to the thread, and then everyone who's lurking for lurking.

Imiknorris reads town, but not strongly.

Yes, WUBA's answers clarified in my mind whether an SK exists.

Top choice is still Jim, mostly for his tunnely attack thingies. I also don't like the BS pressure vote thing from D1.

What tunnely attack? You're just making shit up, aren't you?

And I don't understand the reasoning in this post.

I like how you do things publicly which could just as easily be done by PM to the mod.
Which means this is just for show. Your spot in the noose is well earned.

If Bookthras wanted his role corrected, he could do it privately by PM to the mod. This has the benefit of not revealing anything about his role in the thread, and it could be done as early as as soon as he got the role.

Instead, he brought it up in the thread while he was about to be hanged to... fuck if I know. Make people rethink their decisions at the last minute? Tell people off? Whatever it was, it was not to get his role corrected, because if that were the actual goal he could do that easily by PM. So he brought it up purely for show, and that's scum's whole deal.

Dar: Why have you been so combative? How are you so certain of UI's scumness? Why the tunneling double standard?

Combativeness is Dariush's raison d'être.

I sure hope that's not one of your reasons for voting Dariush, because that would be hilariously scummy of you.

[webadict]

Vote Count
------------------------
Shakerag -
zombie urist -
Dariush - Urist Imiknorris, Hapah,
Urist Imiknorris - Dariush,
Toaster - Shakerag,
Think0028 -
Hapah - Bookthras,
Bookthras - Jim Groovester, Toaster,
Jim Groovester - zombie urist,
No Lynch -

Not Voting - Think0028,

5 To Hammer. Day Ends Friday 9 PM Central.

[Bookthras]

Jim:

The existence of a role doesn't necessarily imply the existence of other roles.

"Roles" and "alignments/win conditions" are very different things. it's odd you failed to make the distinction... or was it on purpose? But the evidence shows there is a serial killer about. Were you a serial killer, who would you have chosen to kill N1 and why?

Off the top of my head, in Bastard Paranormal 1, Bookthras claimed miller when he was a dirty fucking dopp.[...] If your point was that scum fakeclaiming miller is rare and unlikely, well, you couldn't have picked a worse person to make that point on behalf of.

Heh, yeah, the "your ass on a platter" game. That was fun. Shakerag: see below.

What tunnely attack? You're just making shit up, aren't you?

Heheh, TUNNEL TUNNEL CHUNNEL TUNNEL. Don't like being called on it, do you? you haven't voted anyone but me for a fucking week, for reasons like "he's not dead yet", "ignored my questions" (none left unanswered), and "fuck if I know". Good job, you broken record Groovester.

zombie urist for making a lousy argument about me chainsawing, then far behind him Shakerag for not paying attention to the thread, and then everyone who's lurking for lurking.

Really? That's all? A person who voted you for voting me, far behind a person who failed to understand the context, and then lurkers? is Shake's "not paying attention" voteworthy? Have you nothing else? Do you have any opinons about the content of Dariush/Imiknorris' discussion, my case on Hapah, Toaster's scummy vote on me, or anything else? This is awfully thin for late D2 from you...

Please restate your top three picks, with more substantial reasons/cases, and justify your vote.

Instead, he brought it up in the thread while he was about to be hanged to... fuck if I know. Make people rethink their decisions at the last minute? Tell people off? Whatever it was, it was not to get his role corrected, because if that were the actual goal he could do that easily by PM. So he brought it up purely for show, and that's scum's whole deal.

It was to enhance the dramatic death moment. Nothing really to do at the time with appealing decisions or telling people off, and sure, the point could have (and has since) been made by PM, but three minutes from day end with the flip imminent, it was merely to enhance the moment... Please either reconcile "fuck if I know" with "that's scum's whole deal", or demonstrate how "purely for show" is at odds with my penchant for the dramatic... maybe you were misunderstanding my intent?

Spoiler: Woe is me! (click to show/hide)

Shakerag:

Jim:  How many instances of "scum claiming miller" can you recall?

But I don't know what point you're trying to make, since my vote on Bookthras has never been about his miller claim.

Since this came up again, I'll take the liberty for two short paragraphs on the topic (while applauding Jim for not taking the miller thing as factor for his vote):

Shakerag: your question to Jim implies that I must be town because scum wouldn't ever fakeclaim miller. That is precisely my problem with Toaster's "first post" thing! People jump too easily from "null tell" to "town tell". No, I am not anymore townlike or scumlike for claiming it. I'm not lying, but you can't know that, so treat it as a null tell! The main reason I objected to people doing or buying into the early kook claim thing is that others tend to "believe it" and assume the claimant is town just because he claimed it. If this worked, claiming miller would be the way to become a confirmed townie, which would either break games, or be perfect for sufficiently cunning scum!

Barring a previous inspect, any claim of miller at any time (first post, later post, D4, whatever, whenever) is a null tell! Vote the person if they are scummy, and don't vote them just for the claim. It's merely adding NEUTRAL information to the rest of your read on them. If they are inspected and then try to claim miller, then yeah, that's a pretty strong (but not 100%) scum tell. Use your brains.

(Thanks, I'll shut up about this for now.)

[Hapah]

a) Your jumping on the same bandwagon as Toaster late D1, with the only stated reason that I had not posted a case, then I pointed you to it, you saw it, but left the (now reasonless) vote on regardless. Your reasonless bandwagon post is scummy for the same reason Toaster's is (tries to secure a mislynch, or in your case, a nolynch as well).

I voted you because you were the best of a bad lot. Who was I supposed to vote, borno?

b) Your failing to act regarding the tie Think's unvote created immediately after your vote, so close to end of day. You were on and active, but failed to either move or justify your vote, thus giving tacit support to a D1 nolynch knowing it'd be bad for town; it would have ended like that were it not for Jim heckling Tiruin.

Failure to act my ass. I was checking the thread to make sure it didn't end up a nolynch, but Tir broke the tie so I didn't have to act.

c) The most damning: this time I called your reluctance to cast a vote scummy.... and your response was to jump in and stop doing the thing perceived as scummy. That's what scum do when called on scummy behaviour. Your lack of voting until day end is consistent with your town meta (but it shouldn't be; I mean it when I say you should vote more actively and be more involved, just get used to do it throughout the game) but in this case it was clearly a reaction to being called scummy.

So when would you like me to vote, then? I left on Tuesday before the thread unlocked, I didn't get a chance to read it Wednesday evening, and I wasn't prepared to vote until I got off work and could play with LurkerTracker for a minute today. And how can you say it's part of my town meta? You're using the same argument on me that Toaster used on you!

Yeah, I think you are scum.

Alright. I think you're making some rather large assumptions, and I don't know why you quoted the line you quoted.

You mean above?

Yeah, lol. But when I was writing the post it was below.

Can you explain what this means?

Sure. I mean that in the Toaster-Book argument I thought Book was making more sense than Toaster, and UI making more sense than Dar.

Combativeness is Dariush's raison d'être.

Classy. And it just seemed kinda excessive. I pointed out that he was guilty (in my eyes) of the same thing he accused UI of. He then gives that list of things that UI has supposedly done, and as best I can tell UI's right: Quite a few seem to be pulled out of thin air. I'm sure he'll point me at least one answer I didn't see and call me blind/stupid/an idiot for it tomorrow, though.

PPE: Hee, TUNNEL TUNNEL CHUNNEL TUNNEL. I was drinking some water when I read that in the Paranormal, and I nearly drowned.

[zombie urist]

Break 'dem ties, people!

Just remembered, a big reason I voted is because of this, in which Jim tells other people to do the voting such that he does not have to be responsible for the lynches.

What tunnely attack? You're just making shit up, aren't you?

Umm... Maybe the one on Bookthras?

If Bookthras wanted his role corrected, he could do it privately by PM to the mod. This has the benefit of not revealing anything about his role in the thread, and it could be done as early as as soon as he got the role.
Instead, he brought it up in the thread while he was about to be hanged to... fuck if I know. Make people rethink their decisions at the last minute? Tell people off? Whatever it was, it was not to get his role corrected, because if that were the actual goal he could do that easily by PM. So he brought it up purely for show, and that's scum's whole deal.

Ehh. Not sure if I agree with this, cuz I thought scum were all about not being detected, y'know?

[Bookthras]

Break 'dem ties, people!

Just remembered, a big reason I voted is because of this, in which Jim tells other people to do the voting such that he does not have to be responsible for the lynches.

But that goes the same for you. There was a tie. Do you think the tie should have prevailed? How do you see your vote on borno after the fact? Why do you think a call to break the tie is voteworthy? Would you have broken the tie and how?