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[MetalSlimeHunt]

@MSH:
Viruses gather resources(in the form of cells they're invading) for the sake of replication, and mutate.

I personally find the exclusion of viruses from living things to be kind of an arbitrary distinction. Viruses, if not life, are at least a highly convincing imitation of life.

So do Memes with people's attention.

So? Memes are just concepts.

[Derekristow]

For 1:

Homeostasis: Regulation of the internal environment to maintain a constant state; for example, electrolyte concentration or sweating to reduce temperature.
Organization: Being structurally composed of one or more cells, which are the basic units of life.
Metabolism: Transformation of energy by converting chemicals and energy into cellular components (anabolism) and decomposing organic matter (catabolism). Living things require energy to maintain internal organization (homeostasis) and to produce the other phenomena associated with life.
Growth: Maintenance of a higher rate of anabolism than catabolism. A growing organism increases in size in all of its parts, rather than simply accumulating matter.
Adaptation: The ability to change over a period of time in response to the environment. This ability is fundamental to the process of evolution and is determined by the organism's heredity as well as the composition of metabolized substances, and external factors present.
Response to stimuli: A response can take many forms, from the contraction of a unicellular organism to external chemicals, to complex reactions involving all the senses of multicellular organisms. A response is often expressed by motion, for example, the leaves of a plant turning toward the sun (phototropism) and by chemotaxis.
Reproduction: The ability to produce new individual organisms, either asexually from a single parent organism, or sexually from two parent organisms.

Straight from the wiki.

This is the one they taught in high school biology, so this is the definition I'm going with.  Viruses fail homeostasis, metabolism (since they have to hijack a host cell to do it for them), and growth, so they aren't technically alive.

funny. from what I've heard, the present definition of life is actually being put under debate (again) and some people are theorising that, to a certain extent, stars are alive.

This is why we don't let the philosophers near any real science. 

[Frumple]

This is why we don't let the philosophers near any real science. 

Psst. We actually do.

[MagmaMcFry]

@MSH:
Viruses gather resources(in the form of cells they're invading) for the sake of replication, and mutate.

I personally find the exclusion of viruses from living things to be kind of an arbitrary distinction. Viruses, if not life, are at least a highly convincing imitation of life.

So do Memes with people's attention.

So? Memes are just concepts.

But memes propagate exactly the same as viruses. Whatever would lead you to distinguish between memes and viruses when it comes to being alive?

[kaijyuu]

This is why we don't let the philosophers near any real science. 

Psst. We actually do.

Indeed. Scientists are philosophers. What do you ya'll think the dude who came up with the scientific method was doing?


EDIT: I suppose one could claim that science is applied philosophy, just like everything else, but meh.

[MagmaMcFry]

Scientists are simply those philosophers who think about reality.

[Loud Whispers]

Scientists are simply those philosophers who think about reality.

See, think, practice, act on e.t.c.

But memes propagate exactly the same as viruses. Whatever would lead you to distinguish between memes and viruses when it comes to being alive?

One is a bunch of proteins that perform the functions of a living thing when within a host. The other does not exist in any physical form. They don't propagate in exactly the same way as viruses.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

But memes propagate exactly the same as viruses. Whatever would lead you to distinguish between memes and viruses when it comes to being alive?

Viruses have a physical presence.

what about prions? are they alive?

Prions are just proteins that cause harm to an organism. Furthermore, prions don't act like life. You can burn prion-infected meat to ash and not have the prions be affected.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

It isn't that they aren't affected by fire, it is, as we've both said, that they're proteins. They are not living because they are nearly inanimate and are produced by living things for a purpose. Prions are simply those proteins which have been incorrectly created in such a way that they may go on a warpath against the organism they exist within.

A virus will search out a host if it lacks one, proteins and prions just sit around until the bonds holding them together decay if the host dies.

[Askot Bokbondeler]

a virus won't search out a host any more than a prion. it's simply a dislodged dna\rna sequence that randomly fits in a specific type of cell and cause it to produce more of it

[kaijyuu]

Define "search." Viruses can be very selective as to what kind of cells they attach to.

[kaijyuu]

That's because prions can have a very difficult time crossing cell membranes at all. They generally only harm the nervous system because that is interconnected enough that the prions can actually travel from cell to cell.

Prions are about as close to "living" as a line of dominoes.


EDIT: Forgot this.

Scientists are simply those philosophers who think about reality.

Pedantry: Empirical reality. Metaphysics is the one that REALLY talks about "reality" (or our conceptions thereof).

[MetalSlimeHunt]

This is why the "what is life" debate is an exercise in futility.

[MagmaMcFry]

But memes propagate exactly the same as viruses. Whatever would lead you to distinguish between memes and viruses when it comes to being alive?

Viruses have a physical presence.

Is being physically present a requirement of being alive? Essentially, a virus is a pattern of atoms, and a meme is a pattern of thoughts. The pattern of atoms in a virus propagates by interacting with a host (a cell) in such a way that the pattern spreads to more potential hosts, but requires some necessary conditions (specific receptors, proximity to other cells, construction proteins, and no previous exposure). The pattern of thoughts in a meme propagates by interacting with a host (a human mind) in such a way that the pattern spreads to more potential hosts, but requires some necessary conditions (thematic foreknowledge, an Internet connection, Internet contribution skills/software, and no previous exposure). There is absolutely no behavioral difference between viruses and memes. Saying that things need a physical presence to live (or simply self-replicate) is just an unnecessary cognitive restriction.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Is being physically present a requirement of being alive?

Yes.