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[Kogan Loloklam]

The propaganda machine has been spouting off since Romney declaredc he'd visit Israel about how pro-Israel each politician is. They cynically explain that this action has no bad concequences because there is no significant voter base that disagrees with a Pro-Israel statement.

So... Battlefield state americans... Do you disagree with this? Is their pro israel stance a good idea?

Try to avoid flames or religion. This is about the nation, not the people.

I'll start. My home is Colorado Springs. It has a high concentration of evangelicals. Most people there disagree with me when I call Israel another theocratic rogue state in the middle east. Net, I'd say it's a good bet to make in Colorado Springs. There a few of us, mostly athiest, who think that way though.

[nenjin]

I think pretty much every candidate aside from Ron Paul publicly backs Israel in American politics. The Jewish lobby is quite strong, very wealthy, and are politically and socially connected. I don't think you can survive in American politics saying we need to cut Israel off financially or that they're oppressing the Palestinians. Or at the very least, you can't get elected and run the risk of being labeled an anti-Semite.

Personally, I think American and general international support and sympathy for Israel has emboldened them to the point where they're becoming a problem for the region. They're agitating for war against Iran and pulling the whole world into that conflict, and they're immune to criticism on the Palestinian issue because the countries that would normally decry this kind of stuff are in their corner.

So yeah, I feel like Israel has long been shielded from the consequences of its political decisions, mainly by us. I have all the sympathy for them still living in a warzone, but that conflict has long since cut both ways. It isn't the one-sided aggression that Israel tries to present it as.

[kaijyuu]

I'm not sure it's so much a "risk" as a "certainty."

[Jervill]

Unfortunately, nenjin is right.  I personally despise Israel's policies, and sit in a very isolationist part of Minnesota.  Most people here simply believe that interfering one way or the other is none of our business, whether they be liberal or conservative.

Of course, saying that as an elected official might as well be political suicide.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Personally neutral, but I'd agree that most Americans are pro-Israel, and most of the ones that aren't are very, very, "Push Israel into the Mediterranean" pro-Palestine.

I think my view on the matter might be the most rare, and it draws ire from pretty much everyone for not supporting one side over another. 

[kaijyuu]

My view on the situation is essentially that everyone's stuck between a rock and a hard place. Oh, and with their head up their own ass.


Israel probably isn't something that should've been made in the first place, but now that it exists (and has for a while) it's kinda impossible to reasonably go back on that. The Palestinians have a right to it too, though, so... My gut reaction is to ask everyone to hold hands, share, and be happy, but that philosophy seems incompatible with their attitudes toward each other.

[nenjin]

Generally I think that response pisses off both Israelis and Palestinians, because they've suffered at each other's hands and the idea that they should just "get along" sounds like a Westerner's lack of appreciation for what they've all been through. Even though it's logically the only real solution that doesn't end up with either side getting the shaft.

[Aqizzar]

I think pretty much every candidate aside from Ron Paul publicly backs Israel in American politics. The Jewish lobby is quite strong, very wealthy, and are politically and socially connected. I don't think you can survive in American politics saying we need to cut Israel off financially or that they're oppressing the Palestinians. Or at the very least, you can't get elected and run the risk of being labeled an anti-Semite.

I don't think it's so much that a pro-Israeli lobby is powerful itself, so much as the latter part.  It's incredibly easy for a candidate or campaign that's nominally 100% For Something to label anyone who isn't 100% For Something as being 100% Against Something, because American political rhetoric has no room for specifics or nuance.

What the Israel lobby and their allies in a few branches of the political spectrum have been successful at is convincing a pretty significant portion of the electorate that Israel is spiritually the 51st state, entitled to do anything it wants to "protect itself after all the Jewish people have been through", and are everything a loyal God-fearing American should aspire to be - well-armed, deeply religious, champions of law and democracy standing resolute against the world's many Evil Empires.  Nevermind that many Israeli citizens outside of the settlements would call that a crock of shit, and most Americans would balk at the idea of living under a government like Israel's if they knew anything about it.

So if an American politician makes any kind of criticism against the Israeli government, his opponent can immediately call him Ahmadinejad and Hitler's number one fan, and at least 51% of your average electorate is going to take that at face value.  It almost doesn't even need a lobby at this point, since the idea has become completely self-perpetuating.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Generally I think that response pisses off both Israelis and Palestinians, because they've suffered at each other's hands and the idea that they should just "get along" sounds like a Westerner's lack of appreciation for what they've all been through. Even though it's logically the only real solution that doesn't end up with either side getting the shaft.

"All they've been through" has become a self-perpetuating desire to see the other side totally eradicated, or at least that's how the peace blocking extremists appear to feel about it. From what I've seen, Israel and Palestine's extremists are more like each other than their non-extremist countrymen, in that they seem to be just fine with this conflict ending with everyone dead and the region blown to pieces if it means the other side loses.

Funny, that sounds a lot like the Cold War.

[kaijyuu]

Generally I think that response pisses off both Israelis and Palestinians, because they've suffered at each other's hands and the idea that they should just "get along" sounds like a Westerner's lack of appreciation for what they've all been through. Even though it's logically the only real solution that doesn't end up with either side getting the shaft.

"Lacking appreciation" for a blood feud... isn't something I'd consider bad.


There's only two permanent fixes to a long history of hatred and bloodshed:

1) Getting over it.
2) Annihilation of one side.

#2 ain't quite so palatable.


Yeah yeah, ivory towers, lacking their perspective, all that. "Get along" is hard to swallow and I seriously doubt they will anytime soon. I just don't see any other options worth advocating.

[nenjin]

What the Israel lobby and their allies in a few branches of the political spectrum have been successful at is convincing a pretty significant portion of the electorate that Israel is spiritually the 51st state, entitled to do anything it wants to "protect itself after all the Jewish people have been through", and are everything a loyal God-fearing American should aspire to be - well-armed, deeply religious, champions of law and democracy standing resolute against the world's many Evil Empires.  Nevermind that many Israeli citizens outside of the settlements would call that a crock of shit, and most Americans would balk at the idea of living under a government like Israel's if they knew anything about it.

This is the better explanation. American politicians try to depict Israel as essentially American in values. Self-defense, preemptive action, ect....

So disagreeing with Israel or their policy is depicted as disagreeing with American values.

@kaijyuu & MSH

You don't need to explain to me why it's self-defeating. I'm not arguing that it's not. But no one here can really claim to understand what they're going through emtionally, politically, sociologically....unless the people in the next town over from you are mortaring and rocketing your family members on a monthly basis, or keeping you in a perpetual state of poverty and/or imprisonment within your own land.

[Leafsnail]

There are some major barriers to "getting along", though, one of which is the continued building of illegal settlements (you can't make peace with someone if they keep kicking you out of your homes).  That really needs to stop if there's ever going to be any kind of peace.

You don't need to explain to me why it's self-defeating. I'm not arguing that it's not. But no one here can really claim to understand what they're going through emtionally, politically, sociologically....unless the people in the next town over from you are mortaring and rocketing your family members on a monthly basis.

Northern Ireland seems somewhat comparable to me.  There the problem has been to some degree lessened by attempts at reconciliation and peace.

[nenjin]

And the fact that, religion aside, it's racially homogenous.

But yes, NI is a decent historical example of this from the west.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

@kaijyuu & MSH

You don't need to explain to me why it's self-defeating. I'm not arguing that it's not. But no one here can really claim to understand what they're going through emtionally, politically, sociologically....unless the people in the next town over from you are mortaring and rocketing your family members on a monthly basis, or keeping you in a perpetual state of poverty and/or imprisonment within your own land.

I don't need to understand what they're going through. It is better that I don't. When it comes to conflicts like this, you will rarely find anyone but outsiders who have a view on the situation that isn't totally clouded by bias. Even the Israelis and Palestinians who genuinely desire peace will be clouded by bias and will thus have additional difficulty reaching a consensus, not to mention that their more hawkish brethren will dispute any such attempts at consensus.

An outside mediator that is trusted by both Israel and Palestine to act in their best interests but which is not clouded by the bias of this conflict is what is needed to make the peace process a reality. Unfortunately, no such mediator appears to exist at this time. Almost everyone has decided to support Israel against Palestine or Palestine against Israel. There is no powerful force which wants both groups to benefit from the end of the conflict.

There are some major barriers to "getting along", though, one of which is the continued building of illegal settlements (you can't make peace with someone if they keep kicking you out of your homes).  That really needs to stop if there's ever going to be any kind of peace.

Unfortunately, some of these settlements have been around for quite a while and could easily be classified as small towns. As the settlements lean more towards the ultra-orthodox than away from it, both removing them and letting them stay presents serious issues.

[kaijyuu]

You don't need to explain to me why it's self-defeating. I'm not arguing that it's not. But no one here can really claim to understand what they're going through emtionally, politically, sociologically....unless the people in the next town over from you are mortaring and rocketing your family members on a monthly basis, or keeping you in a perpetual state of poverty and/or imprisonment within your own land.

Yeah, I'm not attacking you. Not trying to shoot the messenger or anything

Anyway, none of that gives me a reason to be sympathetic to their desire to mortar and rocket the other side back. I am sympathetic to the violence they have to go through, which is exactly why I'm advocating the one thing that will actually end it. Emotional gambits along the lines of "you don't know what I've been through" don't work if they're trying to justify actions that result in going through even more of the shit that's making their life hell.