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[Owlbread]

I only hear the word "PTSD" thrown around if someone's actually gone to the white coats and gotten tests. It's like a certificate that you can then use in legal or administrative situations where you need something official to show people.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

I also disagree with Carlin. Before it was recognized as PTSD, there was almost no treatment of it whatsoever. There was a little bit of recognition after WWII and in Korea, but back in WWI you could get sent to prison or executed for "cowardice". PTSD is appropriate because it carries medical validity, rather than dismissing it as personal weakness.

I agree that it is something that should be recognized (and certainly is very different from "cowardice") and not punished, but I'm still not sold on it being a "disorder".  The definition of "trauma" indicates "an experience that produces psychological injury or pain" and "a powerful shock that may have long-lasting effects".  So one who experiences a traumatic event ... would very much be expected to be experiencing what everyone is labeling as "PTSD".  Hence why I'm looking at the situation with a thought of "well, yeah, what did you expect to happen after someone has a traumatic experience?" rather than "oh, that behavior is indicitive of a disorder".

If I cut my finger with a knife, I don't think that blood coming from the wound is a disorder.  Blood tends to come out of knife wounds in a rather expected manner.

No, they really aren't. As I said before, most traumatic experiences do not result in PTSD. The behavior is most certainly indicative of a disorder, because the mind can't properly process the trauma and relives the experience in some way.

[Neonivek]

I only hear the word "PTSD" thrown around is if someone's actually gone to the white coats and gotten tests. It's like a certificate that you can then use in legal or administrative situations where you need something official to show people.

Also oddly enough... you can get stress disorders without the Traumatic experience.

[Frumple]

There's... nothing odd about that?

[Neonivek]

There's... nothing odd about that?

The idea that through mild disapproval you can turn someone into a psychological wreck? The idea that the strength of the mind is paradoxical at best?

I'd say there is an oddness about it.

[Owlbread]

I don't think that's odd at all, people are generally very sensitive about what people think of them. Even if they say "I don't care what people think", there's usually someone's opinion that matters very much to them.

[Neonivek]

I don't think that's odd at all, people are generally very sensitive about what people think of them. Even if they say "I don't care what people think", there's usually someone's opinion that matters very much to them.

But enough to give them PTSD-like symptoms?

[EnigmaticHat]

Hence why I'm looking at the situation with a thought of "well, yeah, what did you expect to happen after someone has a traumatic experience?" rather than "oh, that behavior is indicitive of a disorder".

I don't think you understand what that word means in this context.  "Not ordered" certainly is a definition of "disorder" but its the definition you would use to describe a messy room.  The definition of disorder used to describe things like PTSD has nothing to do with whether the disorder is expected.  If your family has a history of diabetes, for example, it wouldn't be a surprise if you got it, but it would still be a disorder.

It is a disorder if the blood doesn't stop coming from the wound or if the wound festers.

Well that AND if you cut your finger with a knife, your body is trying to correct the disorder by bleeding.

Did... did you just imply that bleeding out of a wound is something your body causes on purpose?

[Owlbread]

But enough to give them PTSD-like symptoms?

Yes. That is quite sufficient, though it depends on what you mean by "PTSD like symptoms".

[Frumple]

The idea that through mild disapproval you can turn someone into a psychological wreck? The idea that the strength of the mind is paradoxical at best?

I'd say there is an oddness about it.

Again, that's... not even remotely odd. Stress is bad for you. Even light degrees of it, especially if it's consistent over a long period of time. It'll bugger a person up. Cause of the stress is fairly irrelevant, so far as I'm aware, so long as it's occuring. S'one of the reasons stress is so bad for you, since it (on the basic physical side of things) is a fairly regular (set of) reaction(s) to a potentially very wide array of stimulants (many/most of which stress reactions are frankly detrimental for dealing with). Keep flooding the body with stuff that basically causes it to break and, well. It breaks.

[Owlbread]

I've been holding back on this because I'm reluctant to talk about relatives in this way, but I think this is too relevant to what Frumple brought up to be left unsaid.

My grandmother suffered from terrible anxiety all the way through her life. She worried about everything from financial stuff to me, my dad, the pets, us going on holiday (and what if something happens), anything. She just worried constantly. That kind of anxiety developed from her fairly traumatic childhood when she lost all of her siblings and her mother abandoned her. She developed Alzheimer's Disease a few years ago and I'm convinced it's from a lifetime of anxiety and stress.

Even with Alzheimer's her biggest fear is abandonment and that my grandfather or any of us will leave her. The saddest thing is we will have to one day, but by then I'm hoping she won't be aware of that anymore.

[Shakerag]

No, they really aren't. As I said before, most traumatic experiences do not result in PTSD. The behavior is most certainly indicative of a disorder, because the mind can't properly process the trauma and relives the experience in some way.

Avoiding the issue of getting statistical information on the "trauma -> PTSD" part ... Then I would just say that people possess varying levels of "mental fortitude".  Some people are more likely to cope with traumatic events happening to them, and some people are more strongly affected by them and for longer.  But that is something specific to each individual and not something one can make sweeping generalizations for that cover all of humanity.

By stating certain reactions to traumatic events are characteristic of a "disorder", then you would have to have some manner in establishing what a standard level of response to a traumatic event is.  Can you quantify something like that?  Where does one draw the line between "this is an acceptable amount of stress in response to being emotionally abused" and "this is an unacceptable amount of stress in response to being emotionally abused".

It is a disorder if the blood doesn't stop coming from the wound or if the wound festers.

Well that AND if you cut your finger with a knife, your body is trying to correct the disorder by bleeding.

That's ... not quite the point I was trying to make.

[Descan]

It is a disorder if the blood doesn't stop coming from the wound or if the wound festers.

Well that AND if you cut your finger with a knife, your body is trying to correct the disorder by bleeding.

Did... did you just imply that bleeding out of a wound is something your body causes on purpose?

Keeps the bacteria out (ever try to swim against a current?) and pushes platelets out to the wound to seal it. I can certainly see that as "on purpose".

[EnigmaticHat]

By stating certain reactions to traumatic events are characteristic of a "disorder", then you would have to have some manner in establishing what a standard level of response to a traumatic event is.  Can you quantify something like that?  Where does one draw the line between "this is an acceptable amount of stress in response to being emotionally abused" and "this is an unacceptable amount of stress in response to being emotionally abused".

This is an issue with all disorders.  How much distractedness is ADHD?  How much obssessiveness is OCD?  The point is that some people exhibiting certain behaviors need help, and some people showing less of the same don't need help, and you just need to draw the line somewhere.

It is a disorder if the blood doesn't stop coming from the wound or if the wound festers.

Well that AND if you cut your finger with a knife, your body is trying to correct the disorder by bleeding.

Did... did you just imply that bleeding out of a wound is something your body causes on purpose?

Keeps the bacteria out (ever try to swim against a current?) and pushes platelets out to the wound to seal it. I can certainly see that as "on purpose".

The part where it scabs is on purpose, sure.  But your body couldn't possibly avoid bleeding.  There was a wall keeping pressurized liquid in and then there isn't, of course the liquid comes out.  Its not like fevers or vomiting where the human body evolved a mechanism to actively cause it if something goes wrong, which seemed to be what Neonovik was implying.

[frostshotgg]

For the record, that George Carlin quote was exactly what I was thinking of. Thank you for that.