Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Poll

would you support it?

Yes
No
maybe/depends
only if it's <insert country/organization here>

Pages: 1 ... 5 6 [7] 8

Author Topic: Hypothetical situation: steamroll North Korea  (Read 13506 times)

Guardian G.I.

  • Bay Watcher
  • "And it ducks, and it covers!"
    • View Profile
Re: Hypothetical situation: steamroll North Korea
« Reply #90 on: August 18, 2012, 06:51:12 pm »

Maybe North Korean army is too weak to defeat South Korea, but they have enough power to defend North Korea (especially in the mountainous regions).
Any invasion is going to be a bloodbath and a diplomatic nightmare for the US. (oh, you have defeated the ground forces and occupied the country. Good luck fighting the partisans!)
IIRC, North Korean counterintelligence and state security agencies are very tough - there will be no "Free Korean Armies".
« Last Edit: August 18, 2012, 06:56:26 pm by Guardian G.I. »
Logged
this means that a donation of 30 dollars to a developer that did not deliver would equal 4.769*10^-14 hitlers stolen from you
that's like half a femtohitler
and that is terrible
Sigtext

Loud Whispers

  • Bay Watcher
  • They said we have to aim higher, so we dug deeper.
    • View Profile
    • I APPLAUD YOU SIRRAH
Re: Hypothetical situation: steamroll North Korea
« Reply #91 on: August 18, 2012, 07:05:25 pm »

Maybe North Korean army is too weak to defeat South Korea
If they don't have enough power to defeat SK, they certainly have enough to wreck it...

Guardian G.I.

  • Bay Watcher
  • "And it ducks, and it covers!"
    • View Profile
Re: Hypothetical situation: steamroll North Korea
« Reply #92 on: August 18, 2012, 07:10:04 pm »

Anyway, Korean People's Army is strong enough to deter any possible "liberators".
Logged
this means that a donation of 30 dollars to a developer that did not deliver would equal 4.769*10^-14 hitlers stolen from you
that's like half a femtohitler
and that is terrible
Sigtext

i2amroy

  • Bay Watcher
  • Cats, ruling the world one dwarf at a time
    • View Profile
Re: Hypothetical situation: steamroll North Korea
« Reply #93 on: August 18, 2012, 08:14:58 pm »

Germany is still the richest and most powerful nation in Europe.  They had some economic problems but they recovered better than anyone.
Technically they aren't the "richest" since Switzerland actually has a significant portion of the world's money in their banks, but yes, Germany has done an amazing recovery from where they were after WWII. As of this moment IIRC the German central bank is the second most influential in the world for purposes of economics (falling only slightly behind the U.S. central bank).
Logged
Quote from: PTTG
It would be brutally difficult and probably won't work. In other words, it's absolutely dwarven!
Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead - A fun zombie survival rougelike that I'm dev-ing for.

MaximumZero

  • Bay Watcher
  • Stare into the abyss.
    • View Profile
Re: Hypothetical situation: steamroll North Korea
« Reply #94 on: March 05, 2013, 04:22:33 pm »

Posting to watch, morally opposed to war unless attacked.
Logged
  
Holy crap, why did I not start watching One Punch Man earlier? This is the best thing.
probably figured an autobiography wouldn't be interesting

Frumple

  • Bay Watcher
  • The Prettiest Kyuuki
    • View Profile
Re: Hypothetical situation: steamroll North Korea
« Reply #95 on: March 05, 2013, 04:56:05 pm »

Quote
« Reply #99 on: August 18, 2012, 07:14:58 pm »
Quote
« Reply #100 on: March 5, 2013, at 03:22:33 pm »

It's dead, Jim Max. Or was.

... preemptively PTW because you expect it to start back up with the latest shenanigans?
Logged
Ask not!
What your country can hump for you.
Ask!
What you can hump for your country.

MaximumZero

  • Bay Watcher
  • Stare into the abyss.
    • View Profile
Re: Hypothetical situation: steamroll North Korea
« Reply #96 on: March 05, 2013, 05:05:35 pm »

Quote
« Reply #99 on: August 18, 2012, 07:14:58 pm »
Quote
« Reply #100 on: March 5, 2013, at 03:22:33 pm »

It's dead, Jim Max. Or was.

... preemptively PTW because you expect it to start back up with the latest shenanigans?
Er...well, that's awkward. Not sure how I found my way here, but yeah, let's get it going again.
Logged
  
Holy crap, why did I not start watching One Punch Man earlier? This is the best thing.
probably figured an autobiography wouldn't be interesting

Loud Whispers

  • Bay Watcher
  • They said we have to aim higher, so we dug deeper.
    • View Profile
    • I APPLAUD YOU SIRRAH
Re: Hypothetical situation: steamroll North Korea
« Reply #97 on: March 05, 2013, 05:12:33 pm »

Has anything changed? If Americans land on NK, NK activates nuclear bomb = no more American landing. Steamrolling is still not an option.

MetalSlimeHunt

  • Bay Watcher
  • Gerrymander Commander
    • View Profile
Re: Hypothetical situation: steamroll North Korea
« Reply #98 on: March 05, 2013, 05:26:13 pm »

NK does not have reliable nuclear weapons. The ones they have are smaller than Fat Man and are delivered by missiles that the Seventh Fleet has been preparing to shoot down for a while.

Also, there's the whole "irradiating your own land" factor. Plus the US might just use a real nuke on NK if they were to do that.
Logged
Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
Quote
No Gods, No Masters.

Loud Whispers

  • Bay Watcher
  • They said we have to aim higher, so we dug deeper.
    • View Profile
    • I APPLAUD YOU SIRRAH
Re: Hypothetical situation: steamroll North Korea
« Reply #99 on: March 05, 2013, 05:29:09 pm »

Also, there's the whole "irradiating your own land" factor. Plus the US might just use a real nuke on NK if they were to do that.
There is the issue where genocide is generally frowned upon by people who are right in their minds.

Strife26

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Hypothetical situation: steamroll North Korea
« Reply #100 on: March 05, 2013, 07:15:30 pm »

N. Korea has had hundreds of artillery pieces aimed at the Demilitarized Zone (that is to say, aimed at U.S. troops) for decades, as leverage. They have nukes, even bigger leverage.

These two factors alone make it unthinkable for U.S. planners to decide to steamroll N. Korea.  For the past few decades, NATO/U.N./Pentagon victims have been (mostly) defenseless third world countries which have been covertly destabilized in advance to make it even easier to wreck their society.

Obviously, I'm not in favor of it. Carpet bombing, steam rolling, whatever you call it, is atrocious, costly in many ways, and usually extremely cost-ineffective.

It's not the fixed arty targeting troops that's the fear. I mean, I'd rather not have stuff coming down at my tank on a balistic arc like that, but I can move fast enough to deal with it.


 
From my view, the two Koreas are teetering between reconcilation and irrevocable hostility. Tending towards a frigid state right now.

One guy in Korea pinpointed the positions of many hundreds of artillery pieces and their effective range from Google Maps satellite images; it was impressive, the effort. Seoul can become a sea of fire easily if it comes to that.

It's this.

If you'd like a scenario where a steamroller is going to occur, then this is what'll happen (at least in my humble opinion): tensions will start to escalate to all hell and back again, to the point where the ROK armies and the US start reinforcing the DMZ to a much greater extent then now. This is to say, that instead of a fortified border, there's a couple of brigades of heavy armor sitting there getting ready to rock (I'll send pictures, or more likely not, but preeeeetty good odds that I end up there in this scenario). Eventually, it's possible that the risk of NK opening up with all their fixed becomes great enough to force our hand, at which point we'll see the single greatest preemptive (or near-preemptive. Some chance that we're hopeful enough not to move, or they decide to be preemptive) action in history as we do our damnedest to stop all those tubes from firing. I don't think that we'll be successful.

However, we'll smash them to little pieces (probably at fair cost to ourselves, not even including all the damage that they can inflict to civilian South Korea). The disparity between the three armies is just far too great for anything else to happen. I mean, it's not the cold war anymore, but that doesn't mean we've lost absolute dominance in set piece battles. Now, how fucked up the occupation would be, that's another question. Especially when you consider the logistic problems of trying to reintegrate a country like North Korea back into the world. I'm pretty sure that China won't be terribly happy with the number of refugees they'd have a result.


Has anything changed? If Americans land on NK, NK activates nuclear bomb = no more American landing. Steamrolling is still not an option.

Ummmm no? North Korea doesn't have the capability to stop a determined invasion. I mean, yeah, assuming that they can produce and deliver a warhead, they might be able to kill a lot of American pr South Korean forces, but they don't have 1965 Crocketish capability to close down the DMZ by turning it into an irradiated wasteland.



North Korea has a gun pointed at the South with all the fixed emplacements. However, we've got one pointed at them that'll kill them, while theirs will just serious mess us up.
Logged
Even the avatars expire eventually.

Loud Whispers

  • Bay Watcher
  • They said we have to aim higher, so we dug deeper.
    • View Profile
    • I APPLAUD YOU SIRRAH
Re: Hypothetical situation: steamroll North Korea
« Reply #101 on: March 05, 2013, 07:35:33 pm »

Ummmm no? North Korea doesn't have the capability to stop a determined invasion. I mean, yeah, assuming that they can produce and deliver a warhead, they might be able to kill a lot of American pr South Korean forces, but they don't have 1965 Crocketish capability to close down the DMZ by turning it into an irradiated wasteland.
North Korea has a gun pointed at the South with all the fixed emplacements. However, we've got one pointed at them that'll kill them, while theirs will just serious mess us up.
*Killing them solves nothing except solidifying the idea that those Americans have come here to kill your families.
*North Korea is well within capabilities of bringing Japan and especially South Korea down kicking and screaming. The loss of life would be unparalleled.
*This does not even take into account just how much NK would be willing to part with, especially if faced with overwhelming force.
*They have stockpiles of many more conventional weapons that would cause more damage than their current nuke.

Strife26

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Hypothetical situation: steamroll North Korea
« Reply #102 on: March 05, 2013, 07:44:28 pm »

None of which would stop a determined invasion, which we'd strongly consider if we think they're gonna start firing all that conventional ordnance south.


Logged
Even the avatars expire eventually.

misko27

  • Bay Watcher
  • Lawful Neutral; Prophet of Pestilence
    • View Profile
Re: Hypothetical situation: steamroll North Korea
« Reply #103 on: March 05, 2013, 07:50:39 pm »

I would liek to remind everyone that North Korea does have a absolutely massive military, since all spending goes there. It's nuclear capabilities, however. One must not underestimate the costs, both in money and technology, that consistent use of Nukes is.
 
That said, It woudl be a risk. But, on the other hand, it increases the chance of the Nuclear Taboo being broken, leading to msas chaos and war, allowing me a path into power and domination of the US. Especially in that I could be a Dictator, instead of a unsatisfying democratic leader.
 
If Nkore starts shooting, we start shootign back. Simple as that. To quote President Merkin Muffley:"It is the policy of our country never to strike first."To quote a longer conversation on the subject:
Quote
General "Buck" Turgidson:   Mr. President, we are rapidly approaching a moment of truth both for ourselves as human beings and for the life of our nation. Now, truth is not always a pleasant thing. But it is necessary now to make a choice, to choose between two admittedly regrettable, but nevertheless *distinguishable*, postwar environments: one where you got twenty million people killed, and the other where you got a hundred and fifty million people killed.
President Merkin Muffley:   You're talking about mass murder, General, not war!
General "Buck" Turgidson:   Mr. President, I'm not saying we wouldn't get our hair mussed. But I do say no more than ten to twenty million killed, tops. Uh, depending on the breaks.
Logged
The Age of Man is over. It is the Fire's turn now

Karnewarrior

  • Bay Watcher
  • That guy who used to be here all the time
    • View Profile
Re: Hypothetical situation: steamroll North Korea
« Reply #104 on: March 05, 2013, 07:52:49 pm »

It pretty much depends on if and how China supports them. Ranging from China openly supporting them and starting WWIII (about as unlikely as it sounds) to China being sneaky and shipping them guns (Which, while not making victory possible, could make NK a quagmire) to China not supporting anyone, To China supporting the SK (almost definitely not, though they could probably easy come up with some reasons [NK being batshit is one of them]).

I'm hoping that if NK does initiate hostilities China backs off for realsies and the U.S and SK take them out with relative ease. They probably won't, though. Hopefully NK actually does what Basketbal Man said they wanted to do and actually tries to talk this out, but I doubt it.

It's probably going to be China and the U.S fighting a proxy war. I think NK is just rattling it's sabre at people with guns though. Jong-Un is a manchild, but he's possibly slightly less homicidal than his dad. Still not someone I'd want running my country.

I'm hoping a NK resistance springs up soon. That could be a game-changer.


None of which would stop a determined invasion, which we'd strongly consider if we think they're gonna start firing all that conventional ordnance south.
Yeah, Nukes aren't exactly an end-all. NK dropping the bomb would be a bad move on their part because it wouldn't even fully kill SK, to say nothing of the U.S, who seem to be the main target. NK wants SK farmland, remember, so irradiating the place would go against their plans.

I also have serious doubts they'd even hit the U.S. We aren't exactly dealing with the U.S.S.R, here.
Logged
Thou art I, I art Thou.
The trust you have bestowed upon thy comrade is now reciprocated in turn.
Thou shall be blessed when calling upon personae of the Hangman Arcana.
May this tie bind thee to a brighter future!​
Ikusaba Quest! - Fistfighting space robots for the benefit of your familial bonds to Satan is passe, so you call Sherlock Holmes and ask her to pop by.
Pages: 1 ... 5 6 [7] 8