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Author Topic: Nitpicks that Ruined Movies  (Read 135082 times)

MrWillsauce

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Re: Nitpicks that Ruined Movies
« Reply #150 on: July 29, 2012, 12:02:20 pm »

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I like to think that the machines kept humans around for moral reasons, i.e.: "They're our ancestors, dumb fucks that they are we should still keep them around in a zoo or something. Especially that they can't really live in the wild anymore." They gave them a bit of living space that sort of looks like home, and hooked them up to the grid to recover at least some of the costs, because that's the only way to sustain the whole thing in that fucked up world.
It's just the fanatics from the resistance that can't grasp that the energy is not the goal. And since we see the film from the resistance's perspective...

That would also make sense, and I do like the idea, but it seems too illogical and sentimental for machine thought. Then again things in the Matrix trilogy rarely make sense, so we're free to speculate our own explanations for the nonsense.
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10ebbor10

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Re: Nitpicks that Ruined Movies
« Reply #151 on: July 29, 2012, 12:31:59 pm »

Why does USA have so many damn nukes even though they don't actually plan to nuke anyone? Gotta be prepared, bro. And you don't have to be Nostradamus to predict that natives could start making trouble for your people that are stripping their land of ridiculously valuable resources.
Because the USSR had nukes to. Here there is a massive power discrepancy, the Na Vi are armed with bows and arrows. Against gunships, rockets and machine guns. The mere existence of the virus proves a far greater threat than the Na Vi would ever be. Should it's existence be discovered, the RDA will loose it's mining rights, not only of Pandora, but also of the Moon and Mars. The organization might even be completly disbanded.
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DJ

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Re: Nitpicks that Ruined Movies
« Reply #152 on: July 29, 2012, 12:42:57 pm »

Yeah, I don't think so. A corporation so big has to have loads of politicians on it's payroll. And a sizeable chunk of Earth's workforce, so they're simply too big to fail. Even in the event of them being discovered, there's no real danger of them losing their mining concession.

As for gunships, rockets etc., they're quite simply more expensive and less effective than a virus. Any rational board of directors would opt for the more cost effective thing.
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10ebbor10

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Re: Nitpicks that Ruined Movies
« Reply #153 on: July 29, 2012, 01:05:06 pm »

The RDA's background explicitely states that they only got the mining license for a single reason( Ie, the PETA screwing up their own campaign, as stated before) and at a number of conditions, one of which being them prohibiting the development, owning and using of Weapons of Mass destruction. Besides, the RDA being to big to fall doesn't prevent the board of directors being trialed before the Geneva commision and such. At the very least the RDA would be nationalized. It's not as invulnerable as it seems to be.

The entire Avatar project was funded solely because of PR reasons. A single avatar costs 5 million dollars. Assuming they get two avatars a year*. That's at least 10 million a year, probably way more if we count the other costs. And that's only a small part of their PR program. The RDA has had serious PR problems. Besides, there is the question about moral objections the board of directors might have. The deleted scenes planned for Selfridge to protest against Quaritch actions, and be locked up in his own command center. I doubt that even in a board of directors based solely on profits you'd find people willingly deciding to genocide a whole species.

Then there is the question of wherether or not the virus would have been used. Quarritch managed to defeat the Na Vi two to one, on their terrain, and by entering one of their ambushes. All that with minimal losses. At no points the Na Vi ever where a serious threat, never near as dangerous enough to deploy an engineered virus that would wipe out a whole species.

As for the virus being relatively cheap. It costs 5 million for each avatar clone, and that is with the technology already in place. The cost for the actual Dna replication would be a lot more.

* ISV's arrive yearly. And the only one we saw carried 2 avatars, so I'm going to take that as the number.
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Sheb

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Re: Nitpicks that Ruined Movies
« Reply #154 on: July 29, 2012, 01:35:01 pm »

Well, I think you got me convinced. Although if they had such PR problems, why blow the Tree up, rather than dig underneath it/find some kind of plant disease? Surely blowing up the major cultural center of the native isn't good.

Another thing I really dislike is the way the natives can't fight for themselves until the White Man comes up to lead them. I felt like watching Pocahontas or something.

Oh, and what's that Deux Ex Machina you're contantly refering to? The big bird?
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10ebbor10

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Re: Nitpicks that Ruined Movies
« Reply #155 on: July 29, 2012, 01:44:47 pm »

Well, I think you got me convinced. Although if they had such PR problems, why blow the Tree up, rather than dig underneath it/find some kind of plant disease? Surely blowing up the major cultural center of the native isn't good.

Another thing I really dislike is the way the natives can't fight for themselves until the White Man comes up to lead them. I felt like watching Pocahontas or something.

Oh, and what's that Deux Ex Machina you're contantly refering to? The big bird?
The tree was right on top of their proposed strip mine. As for finding plant diseases, it might be that Pandoran's biology is extremely disease resistant.(The original 90's script had Eywa curing human diseases, for example). Even on Earth a healthy tree takes more than a few months to be brought down by any disease.(Except for some dangerous bugs, of course). (Besides, natural (plant)diseases don't fit in with the natural Paradise we got here.)
(As for blowing up hometree, they got themselves a slightly valid reason in the extended edition)
Spoiler: Spoilers (click to show/hide)
However, the strip mine they're using is terribly outdated. I mean, the ore they are mining floats when it's concentrated enough, can't they drill a hole, perforate the ground with high pressure water pipes to loosen the ground, and then use an electromagnet to attract the eroded unobtanium. They use something similiar to mine uranium and I think oil on Earth, so why not on Pandora.

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DJ

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Re: Nitpicks that Ruined Movies
« Reply #156 on: July 29, 2012, 02:22:36 pm »

Huge corporations getting shut down by government, greedy CEOs getting trials instead of golden parachutes? There's fiction, and there's just plain ridiculousness. Have you been under a rock this whole global economic crisis?
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Kagus

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Re: Nitpicks that Ruined Movies
« Reply #157 on: July 29, 2012, 02:28:22 pm »

Huge corporations getting shut down by government, greedy CEOs getting trials instead of golden parachutes? There's fiction, and there's just plain ridiculousness. Have you been under a rock this whole global economic crisis?
Now now, that's just being nitpicky.


I suppose I'll hearken back to that bit about zombies in zombie movies not attacking/eating each other...  Especially seeing as in Mr. Romero's "Land of the Dead" (I really have no idea why this guy's supposed to be an aficionado), there's actually a scene in which a zombie is shown eating himself.  I mean, if they did stuff like that, you could just wait a few weeks and the whole thing'd blow over (or you could just move to Madagascar, because nothing gets into that place).

10ebbor10

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Re: Nitpicks that Ruined Movies
« Reply #158 on: July 29, 2012, 02:31:03 pm »

Huge corporations getting shut down by government, greedy CEOs getting trials instead of golden parachutes? There's fiction, and there's just plain ridiculousness. Have you been under a rock this whole global economic crisis?
I'm an optimist. Then again, it appears the governements in Avatar actually care about what's left of the environement, so...

As for zombie rampages, the Romero one is the only one that would realistically work. All recently dead rising is rather a lot.
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DJ

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Re: Nitpicks that Ruined Movies
« Reply #159 on: July 29, 2012, 02:35:51 pm »

I'm sorry, but that kind of fiction is just too out there for me to swallow. The golden rule is that he who has the gold makes the rules. Always was, still is, always will be.
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Neonivek

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Re: Nitpicks that Ruined Movies
« Reply #160 on: July 29, 2012, 05:23:17 pm »

I'm sorry, but that kind of fiction is just too out there for me to swallow. The golden rule is that he who has the gold makes the rules. Always was, still is, always will be.

Especially since it actually has a monopoly.

Lets just face it... even with all this justification of Avatar's plot... it is still a rocky plotline that is best left forgotten. It is a movie where you have to forget there even is a plot to enjoy fully.
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Flare

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Re: Nitpicks that Ruined Movies
« Reply #161 on: July 29, 2012, 08:44:08 pm »

There' a difference between ships armed with active weaponry and shuttles that could be used to crash on Earth.  Besides, as evidenced by the post above, the RDA was required to sign a contract that they would not use/own any WMD or participate in the militarization of space.
...
3. They wouldn't have got permission to build the ship without signing the contract. I'm pretty sure they made sure that the RDA wouldn't cheat on them.

This is the mechanics of how they implemented their intentions, not whether their intentions are justified or make sense which is what we're examining here. They could just as easily made them sign a contract that forbid them from carrying logging or mining equipment. The justifications of which wouldn't support this sort of decision. You're already trusting them control a ship that can end the world, and yet you don't trust them to being able use nukes responsibly?


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1. All RDA officials live on Earth. Sure they could hold each mutually hostage, but it would accomplish much

You're confusing two different things. There's trust, and motivation. Both of which support the fact that the earth governments shouldn't really have that much of a problem letting them have small, low yield nukes. This is the same risk, albeit a lot larger than simply letting them carry nukes. You nuke earth, you set of MAD. In any case, they wouldn't have a reason to nuke earth anymore than they would crash a part of the ship into earth. There's really no reason why they would be motivated either way. And since they can

2. Also, using the ship as a weapon would be rather hard.
             -The ship requires 6 months to arcelerate
             -At those speeds, even a dust particle would blow up the entire ship. It has shields to avoid this, but since the defense systems relies on the first 3 shields being destroyed in the collision, just sending 2 pebble sized objects can destroy it. 
             -An integral part of the ships arceleration is a giant laser placed somewhere in the solar system. I'm pretty sure this one would be under governement control. [/quote]

You would not need to go at full speed, even at 0.2c the amount of energy that you're packing in 5 tons entering the atmosphere will be still be quite huge. Besides that, just release the payload once you're inside the oort cloud. Space is big, and mostly empty, hitting something once you're in the oort cloud is incredibly low. And travelling at that velocity, it won't leave earth much time to enact countermeasures.

As for the laser acceleration thing, if a ship can stop itself from achieving 0.7c within the time frame of the journey, it still can achieve these this speed albeit in a much larger time frame, this doesn't really change the fact that they're taking this voyage in what essentially amounts to a planet killer.

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4. Fusion only happens at high temperatures/high densities. In order to have a fusion bomb you'd need to use a fission bomb to set it off.  As for using them to burn forests, why? The RDA doesn't want to destroy the forests, nor anger the natives, the general public or the United Nations if they don't need too.  Over it's thirty year colonization, the RDA has cut maybe just enough forest to justify 3 warheads. (The mine, Hell's gate and Hometree). Nevertheless, they would still need to invest in logging equipment, if only to control the Jungle when it grows back. Blowing it up works the first time, but after that your own material gets in the way.

Why yes, you probably need fission to set the bomb off, what does this have to do with the raised points? Aren't you just lampooning your previous statement that pure fission weapons don't exist? Surely there are some bombs that don't militarily require such a large yield that only utilize fission. Tactical warheads are one such possibility.
Also, how do you know the RDA has only cut enough for 3 warheads ???? And what yields are you talking about?
The RDA is clearly shown cutting down trees, as well as bringing in logging equipment. It seems a little silly to say they have no intention of clearing the forests, or at least are not prepared to do so. They also don't seem to give much crap about the natives aside from some of the science crew.
 
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Given the danger of anti matter weaponry, it would make sense for the governements of Earth to enforce strict rules and such. Maybe all higher RDA officials are forced to remain on Earth. Maybe there are failsafes build in in the engines. The particle arcelerators that produce the antimatter are most likely heavily guarded and governement controlled too. In the end however, why would the RDA ask for the bombs:

Remember, you are arguing against the earth governments giving the crew nukes. You need to escape the counterargument that any sort of preventative action used against the crew with their already extremely dangerous ship can't also be applied to the nukes too. Tough rules, and such, regulations, and even forcing the execs to be a place that would make retaliation easier can be similarly applied to low yield nukes as well and be much easier to do.

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Negative
-Requires breaking a contract with the effects that all RDA's space bound operations would be cancelled
-Will make the natives revolt, immediatly
-PR death

Really, the costs completly outweight possible benefits

#2 I don't know whether this would be the case, nukes do seem to be quite good at ending wars with a 100% chance of surrender from the enemy when they are used ;).
#3 They have a doom ship, and the Russians already use these things to seal off underwater oil leaks, right now.
Besides, if you do it well people might be on your side. The level of need for this type of stuff seems to be quite desperate for this type of business venture to be profitable. So long as you make the natives look slightly unreasonable, I don't think the population of earth would be all that angry with the crew. It's kinda like how in some Middle Eastern and Latin American countries outright take the land from people living there to construct oil platforms or factories. Unfortunately the population right now seems quite apathetic to these people.
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kaenneth

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Re: Nitpicks that Ruined Movies
« Reply #162 on: July 29, 2012, 09:01:43 pm »

As for The Matrix, my assumption is that the machines are generally held to the 3 Laws; however distorted they are.

Human were destroying their environment and killing each other; the machines stopped that.

Some humans rebel, and they need to be stopped to protect the greater number of humans.

Agent Smith just went nuts however.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Nitpicks that Ruined Movies
« Reply #163 on: July 29, 2012, 09:14:08 pm »

Agent Smith just went nuts however.
Smith isn't a Machine. He's Matrix software. Insane sapient Matrix software.

Anyway, it is worth noting that the First Matrix was a paradise beyond compare, but its inhabitants couldn't handle that and started dying. Learning from this, the Machines deduced that humans thrive on suffering and thus the Second Matrix was a horrible unending nightmare. This also started killing everyone in the Matrix, and so the Machines learned that humans can only survive in a perpetual grey and boring but tolerable lifestyle. Thus, the aesthetic of the Third Matrix that we see in the film.
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Neonivek

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Re: Nitpicks that Ruined Movies
« Reply #164 on: July 29, 2012, 09:38:41 pm »

Agent Smith just went nuts however.
Smith isn't a Machine. He's Matrix software. Insane sapient Matrix software.

Anyway, it is worth noting that the First Matrix was a paradise beyond compare, but its inhabitants couldn't handle that and started dying. Learning from this, the Machines deduced that humans thrive on suffering and thus the Second Matrix was a horrible unending nightmare. This also started killing everyone in the Matrix, and so the Machines learned that humans can only survive in a perpetual grey and boring but tolerable lifestyle. Thus, the aesthetic of the Third Matrix that we see in the film.

Except you are also incorrect. That wasn't the third matrix it is implied that there has been many with adjustments along the way.

Unless that was a retcon.

I am a bit surprised the machines ever turned evil personally given the background of them practically being saints and humans being devils... but I attribute that to the matrix story making little sense (though given the Matrix universe actually has a material god that exists...)
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