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[Ktok]

My goal was to make a fortress out of the first 7 dwarves to exist, and make the pop only grow through birth. After a decent survey of the wiki I see you can allow a world to gen with no dwarven Civ, but I don't see a way to embark on a world like that. I've considered a few things so far including

• Locking out all migrants to die - just doesn't seem fun, so much mess too, doesn't stop caravans etc.
• Setting Pop to 0 or 7, which should counter all migrant waves after 2, and with a min of 2 per wave that'd take me up to 11 which I don't altogether mind. Downside is re-running the first 2 waves til they both roll 2.
• I know very little of adventure mode, but if you can launch a dwarf adventurer in a world with no dwarven Civ left, and 'abandon' before death, repeat 7 times to get enough dwarves together so that I can embark? Assuming no, since that still doesn't make a Civ

I'm not opposed to raw edits to make this work, though I'd like to keep the game as vanilla as possible. And so I appeal to the wisdom of these hallowed forums - is there a simple solution I missed? A pop cap edit in advanced world gen perhaps, and gen the world only 0 or 1 years so I start with only "progenitor dwarves".

In fact, does anyone know how many, by default, dwarves are 'created' in year 0 for a single Civ?

[XXSockXX]

The starting 7 and the first 2 migration waves are randomly generated no matter if a dwarven civ exists or not.

In year 0 I think around 6 dwarves are generated per civ, but that has nothing to do with migration, many of these won't migrate to your fort anyway (King, General, religious leader) or die in the first years of world gen.

To achieve a dwarf-free world I would suggest to try a world with low number of civilisations (5). Having high savagery and not many mountains may help in preventing a dwarf civ becoming very powerful. If you run a very long history (300 years at least, the more the better) there is a high chance one or more civs will go extinct. You just have to play around a bit until you get a world where dwarfs went extinct.

[knutor]

120 entities/civ site is the cap.  As for the starting entity pop/civ site, I don't know.  I'd wager 7, for them aswell.  This could be determined within Legends viewer, for a world with no history, I'd imagine.  Have you tried lowering Civs Sites and Civs in an Adv World Gen?  From what I hear there is absolutely no way to prevent the first 2 waves of migrants, they are hard coded. 

We get um even if we do not have a mountainhome civ site, DF forces one, I imagine, when the parameters do not allow for one.  They used to be able to be eliminated from within Runesmith, the minute they appear however, if you don't mind a little tweaking.  Not sure if DFHack has a parameter to tweak migrants and mountainhomes.  Might check there.  Take care, Knutor

[vjek]

You can, with a few tweaks in worldgen, create a world that only has dwarves and goblins in it.
Further, you can create a world that has exactly one dwarven civ in it, with many goblin civs, and cause-to-be-extinct the single dwarven civ.
In the end, though, it doesn't really matter.  Civ or extinct civ, you'll get dwarves.  As many as you need, concocted out of Armok's Ether on demand.

To get as few dwarves as possible, remove:     [ACTIVE_SEASON:AUTUMN] from [ENTITY:MOUNTAIN] in raw/objects/entity_default.txt

This will prevent liaisons and caravans from ever visiting your site.  You'll get two waves of migrants, and that's it.

Unfortunately, it can also create a strange problem, whereby your fort is not considered "ready" for invaders, in particular if you never go above 20 dwarves.  20 is the magical number.  If you get to 21+, everything will work as expected.  thieves, babysnatcher, abushes, sieges.  If you reach EXACTLY 20, things can go a little wonky/strange.  If you never reach 20, you may never get invaders.

The way to tell if things are working right is, if by spring of the second year (so you've gone through, spring, summer, autumn, winter, spring since embark) and you create a job with the manager, and it has to be validated?  Everything is working properly.  If you get to that point in time, and manager jobs are still queue'd instantly?  You're boned.  Things will be wonky/strange in that fort, forever.
If you get to exactly 20 dwarves (from the first two hardcoded migrant waves) before the outpost liaison and first caravan shows up?  They'll never show up.  No matter what you change for settings.  And likely, your outpost will not be considered ready for invaders, either.

Unfortunately, after going through this many times with experiment forts, my solution has been to turn off invaders in d_init.txt, set the pop_cap to 22 to ensure I get 20+ migrants, allow the first caravan/liaison to arrive, THEN remove the [ACTIVE_SEASON:AUTUMN] from the save raws, and wait until all the remaining migrant waves get to the fort, and the "the fort attracted no migrants this year" message comes up for two seasons in a row.  After all that is done, I turn invaders back on, and the goblins come forth as expected.

Having seen all the permutations of this particular mechanic, I can see why Toady wants to change migration in general. (as he mentioned in the last Dwarf Fortress Talk.)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Yeah, and there'll be situations where that group doesn't exist, and then you probably wouldn't expect the migrant waves at all, in that case, or you might occasionally get some, but it wouldn't be like it is now. So everything's going to change, that's basically the bottom line on migrants, is that everything is going to change.

[Replica]

For the record,

Exactly 100 entity creatures (dwarves, elves, humans, goblins, kobolds) are spawned per civilization entity by default.

[XXSockXX]

For the record,

Exactly 100 entity creatures (dwarves, elves, humans, goblins, kobolds) are spawned per civilization entity by default.

I play lots of pocket worlds. Usually there are 6 historical figures per civ in year 1 and a certain amount of site inhabitants that don't show up in legends mode. Is that these site inhabitants you are referring to?

[Replica]

For the record,

Exactly 100 entity creatures (dwarves, elves, humans, goblins, kobolds) are spawned per civilization entity by default.

I play lots of pocket worlds. Usually there are 6 historical figures per civ in year 1 and a certain amount of site inhabitants that don't show up in legends mode. Is that these site inhabitants you are referring to?

Yes.
Not everyone has individual names appearently, in battle reports in Legends Viewer you sometimes see "X number of Y's" instead of individuals.
War veteran migrants may arrive with "X number of goblins" in their unnotable kill list.

Don't know much else about it.

[Ktok]

Thanks a ton! It's looking like setting my pop cap extremely low, but not my baby cap is what I'm looking for. The [ACTIVE_SEASON:AUTUMN] edit will help greatly with what I'm trying to do, ensuring that these dwarves play as lonely as possible. I don't mind if a few, very few, extras come from the hardcoded waves - that can work in as some lore for Armok making a couple extra "Firstborn". Firstborn is ultimately the goal here - to make my fort grow only by births and build everything on location.

I don't want to cut down the generic Civ variables in advanced world gen tho, as I want to have healthy and robust 'lesser' civs. No desire to trade, but preferably to go to war with - eventually.

A brief question about the "getting exactly 20 dwarves" problem - if I go, 19, 20, 21 from birth of babies will that fix things or is any stop on exactly 20 a permanent break? If so I see a solution in reloading until the birth that would have gone from 19 to 20 gets me twins, assuming twins/trips is determined at time of birth.

[vjek]

... A brief question about the "getting exactly 20 dwarves" problem - if I go, 19, 20, 21 from birth of babies will that fix things or is any stop on exactly 20 a permanent break? If so I see a solution in reloading until the birth that would have gone from 19 to 20 gets me twins, assuming twins/trips is determined at time of birth.

Good question.  I play with zero births/zero fertility, so I can't answer that one.  It's possible births may "fix" the problem.  If you find out, let us know!

[krenshala]

Some or all of the first two migrant waves can be Historical Figures.  In my current fortress (world gen ran until 1041) only four or five were non-historical figures.  Thats 11 or 12 of 35 non-historical when the dwarven caravan arrived the first time (counting the starting seven).

[Ktok]

Here's a dumb question, how do I tell if all the dwarves are gone during world gen? Or how do I remove them from being placed on the map at all?
I mean, I can embark with [ACTIVE_SEASON:AUTUMN] removed, and in year 2 or so for a very young world etc.

[vjek]

Here's a dumb question, how do I tell if all the dwarves are gone during world gen? Or how do I remove them from being placed on the map at all?
I mean, I can embark with [ACTIVE_SEASON:AUTUMN] removed, and in year 2 or so for a very young world etc.

Best way to tell for sure is, after worldgen is done, press 'p' to export image/info.
This creates three files in the df directory called "region-world_gen_param.txt" , "region-world_history.txt" , and "region-world_sites_and_pops.txt"

Take a look at world_sites_and_pops.txt, the first civ entry will typically be the dwarven civ, and how many dwarves are in the world will be shown at the start of the file.  Extinct dwarven mountainhomes are represented by a different icon (looks a little bit like a lower case m) during worldgen, but in the file, it shows up something like:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Civilized World Population

   49367 Goblins

   Total: 49367

Sites

1: Ralost, "Silveryfolded", mountain halls
   47 dogs
   33 cats
   2 mules
   2 donkeys
   2 horses
   2 cows
   2 sheep
   2 pigs
   12 goats
   8 chickens
   2 cavies
   4 ducks
   2 water buffalos
   16 reindeer
   9 geese
   2 yaks
   2 llamas
   2 alpacas
   41 guineafowls
   14 blue peafowls
   2 turkeys
   2 rabbits
2: Pobostombis, "Pobostombis", dark fortress
   Owner: Fraylin, goblins
   Parent Civ: Gilanker, goblins
   10127 goblins
3: Flishrober, "Flishrober", dark fortress
   Owner: Stlaler, goblins
   Parent Civ: Srakagatlangus, goblins
   1020 goblins
4: Gropreerus, "Gropreerus", dark fortress
   Owner: Frukuchudus, goblins
   Parent Civ: Strurbus, goblins
   10120 goblins
5: Jreegis, "Jreegis", dark fortress
   Owner: Slogokochreerbis, goblins
   Parent Civ: Tridistluris, goblins
   10135 goblins
6: Jugutlirbis, "Jugutlirbis", dark fortress
   Owner: Taprorsnis, goblins
   Parent Civ: Foger, goblins
   10137 goblins
7: Peerus, "Peerus", dark fortress
   Owner: Strufukugaldus, goblins
   Parent Civ: Stafeebis, goblins
   7828 goblins
8: Icalacuthabe, "Lockdepths", lair
   1 leopard outcast
9: Ikiuta, "The Pleated Pits", lair
   1 jaguar outcast
10: Ecan˘isa, "The Strong Shafts", lair
   1 dingo outcast
11: Ro¤adshoneth, "Boredomhells", lair
   1 leopard outcast
12: Kitewshoneth, "The Aching Hell", lair
   1 leopard outcast

Outdoor Animal Populations (Including Undead)
   21040 dingoes
...

which you can see, it shows all the animals, but no dwarves.  Sometimes there are no animals, but often there are.  In any case, as long as the worldgen was able to -place- a dwarven civ initially, what happens after that doesn't matter.  They can all die, and you can still play fortress mode and get dwarves, as many or as few as you need/want.

[krenshala]

I typically just cycle through the available civs on the embark screen and look for ones that don't display any blue statue/whatever icons on the world map.  Those icons are to show what area the selected civ nominally controls, so picking one without any claimed territory means there won't be many dwarves in it.

Oh, and selecting a very large civ doesn't necessarily mean there are dwarves left in it, either.  I remember seeing the occasional report of large civs that only had goblins or elves left after the dwarves conquered them, then died out for some other reason (typically more wars).

[knutor]

how do I tell if all the dwarves are gone during world gen?

If shark dentistry frightens you, like it frightens me, then...  Press tab a couple times at the embark screen in DF, that window with the three maps, until the Choose Civilization screen appears in the right hand panel.  If there are none listed there, then there are none. 

This other suggestion I wanna make, was already mentioned in this thread up further, I think. Make sure to have [PLAYABLE_CIVILIZATION_REQUIRED:1] in worldgen, and then make an advanced world without mountains(300-400 elevation) or [ELEVATION:1:200:X:X].   Sincerely, Knutor

[i2amroy]

You could remove the [OUTDOOR_FARMING] and [INDOOR_FARMING] from the dwarven entity, then replace them after world gen is finished and all of the dwarves should starve to death in year 4 IIRC. Though this does have the side effect of you being unable to request food/seeds at embark, so you will need to gather your starting plants for your fortress.