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[Urist Imiknorris]

I run under the assumption that anyone who posts is either playing, asking for a spoilspec or Darvi. And only one of those three vote to extend.

[Phantom of The Library]

Dariush: Should a jester be lynched (assuming that there could be one), would the game end, or would it continue on?

The game would continue.

Excellent, let's get down to business then.


zombie urist:

How are you so certain?  We're not even 48 hours into the game, and you're already 90% sure that you know who the scum are?  Please bequeath the unlimited and holy wisdom that allowed you to perform this miraculous deduction upon us.

Gut read. Made that number up. I'm still pretty sure that OB is scum, less so for Toaster.

Then why the frick would you say that?  Why not just say "gut read" instead of pulling a number out of your nether regions and looking like an idiot?

Moreover, why do you think that Orangebottle is scum again? I can't seem to find it.

So then why did you claim at all? In one post you're claiming that you're against the idea of claiming HP and in the next you're claiming. 
Let us see:
So you're saying that you could be fakeclaiming after saying that there wasn't a point to doing so.
Could you please explain your heel-face turn?  So that we would shut up and scumhunt more isn't a good enough reason for making a hypocrite of yourself.  If you really wanted us to scumhunt more, then why not do it yourself?

I'm not against the idea of claiming. I just don't think it would be helpful.

Then WHY DID YOU!? And you didn't answer the question fully.


Yeah, you're either a jester or an incompetent mafioso.  Either way, ZU, you need to go.
To Reiterate:
-You either ignore questions or answer them incompletely or vaguely.
-I can't find a single instance where you actually scum-hunted throughout the day, the closest thing I can find is you pressuring Orangebottle about why he doesn't want to reveal his HP.
-Everything you've done lately just screams "lynch me!" and quite frankly I'm happy to oblige you now that I know that we won't lose the game.
-Oh, and Failure to Deliver here


Hapah:
So.

Why are you still not scumhunting?  You poked ZU a bit earlier, but that's it.


Orangebottle:

Imiknorris:

That last one didn't count because Book's face is a fuckface.

Am I missing something here? Did the extend go through or am I going to have to get violent with the mod?

Why aren't you paying attention? Book's not in the game.

How is this enough to warrant an FoS?


Toaster:

Regarding your nightkill idea, it's nice, but I doubt we have enough people that would comply with the suggestion, or enough damaging moves to do so.  I'd rather get him out of the way now as it's just as likely that he wants to die at night.


Tiruin:
What are your reads on everyone right now?

[Orangebottle]

Orangebottle:

Imiknorris:

That last one didn't count because Book's face is a fuckface.

Am I missing something here? Did the extend go through or am I going to have to get violent with the mod?

Why aren't you paying attention? Book's not in the game.

How is this enough to warrant an FoS?

Because the only people who don't need to pay attention are the scum. They already know who's scum and who's not scum. If he's not paying attention as town, he damn well should be, and I wanted to get his attention.

[Urist Imiknorris]

Scum don't need to pay attention?

[Orangebottle]

...It sounded better that way in my head.

Basically, the scum already know who's scum, so paying attention to each and every tiny little detail of every post is less critical to their success than it would be if they were town.

[Hapah]

UI: Re: Your post (I hate big quote pyramids)

You're voting him despite the bolded part?

Yup. One is a win (lynch scum), one is unfortunate (lynch town), and one is almost inevitable (Jester, especially if he can win at night).

Why bring this up?

So that people don't go "Y U NO POST". It was late and I still didn't feel great.

You're still not actually trying to determine his alignment.

It's almost a moot point by now. He's either town and a big distraction, scum and the lynch is great, or Jester/Martyr and we may as well lynch and get on with it (I just hope he's not the kind that kills a voter if he's a Jester. What are those called, SuperSaint Jesters?). Sometimes people step in it so bad that not lynching them is almost not an option (I'm thinking back to NF's misclaim in RL4. He was town, but I'd make the same decision again without a doubt. This isn't as extreme, but the principle is similar)

Gotta lynch someone, and I think ZU is the best choice.

Maybe somewhere else, but on Bay12 they're third parties who win when they get NK'd.

Noted.

So.

Why are you still not scumhunting?  You poked ZU a bit earlier, but that's it.

Mostly because I'm bad at D1.

Spoiler: STORY TIME! (click to show/hide)

This is where my Mafia beginnings fail me. Most of the games I played before I came here started at Night 1. So you start D2 with something to go on: Someone will claim an inspect result, or X visited Y, or something. You don't get that here. I think I finally get it, though.

My strength is analysis. I like picking people's brains and figuring out why a person acted the way they acted. I like gathering up the facts and putting up arguments that are very well grounded in reality, and I'm decent at clearly articulating the facts and my thoughts. You obviously can't do that D1, so I just derp and shut down until I've got something to go on. And while I was trying to go to sleep last night and was thinking about why Toaster was giving OB such a hard time over this HP thing when you could reasonably arrive at OB's conclusion, it finally hit me. He wasn't voting OB because he was convinced that he was scum, or because he had a really strong case. He was voting and fighting with him because it's the only thing you can do. You can't have facts, you can't have unquestionable truths. So you have to throw a lot of mud and see what sticks. And if you throw a bucket of mud and only get one little speck to stick, you hang onto that speck and you give them hell for it. You push and twist and misrepresent every goddamn thing you can and attack for the most trivial of disagreements, and maybe, if you're lucky, you can get a toehold on the truth, or at least a springboard for new questions. That's it. I finally understand.

And so now, I'm at a disadvantage. I didn't do my due diligence: I didn't hammer OB for coming to a different conclusion than I did on the HP system OR the NK, I should have. I should have been hitting the lurkers, I should have hit UI when he asked why the extend didn't go through, I should have hit ZU right when he started acting odd instead of asking for clarification. I should have done a lot of things, thrown caution to the wind, and made a major nuisance of myself, because that's how you get information. I didn't ask the questions or push the issues, and so now I don't have those springboards to get to new lines of questioning. I've just got to work with others questions and look like a lazy/scummy fuck for doing so.

Am I on the right track, here? Do I have the idea down? (Anybody can weigh in on this, I really want to know. It felt like an "aHA!" moment to me)

So, that, mostly. And it was a hell of a day and I didn't get to make the post I wanted to make. Sorry.

I'll check in again before bed.

[Toaster]

Shakerag:

With NativeForeigner's theory on "feeders", that sounds more like someone who would want to be killed at night rather than day.  At least, to me it does.  That way they "troll" thier team (town) by drawing attacks at night that could be directed at scum. 

I don't see this holding any game-relevant water.


Hapah:

It's almost a moot point by now. He's either town and a big distraction, scum and the lynch is great, or Jester/Martyr and we may as well lynch and get on with it (I just hope he's not the kind that kills a voter if he's a Jester. What are those called, SuperSaint Jesters?). Sometimes people step in it so bad that not lynching them is almost not an option (I'm thinking back to NF's misclaim in RL4. He was town, but I'd make the same decision again without a doubt. This isn't as extreme, but the principle is similar)

Oh hey, great logic there!  Zombie Urist!

Oh wait, no, that's dumb.  Unvote.

You're being far too careless and lackadaisical with your vote.  Bad town is town, and lynching town is a MISlynch, which is a MIStake.  Your actions smell like someone wanting to lynch someone D1 just to get through it and see the night.  It is extremely relevant which alignment he is, and your voting him without caring which it is is suspicious as hell.

Spoiler: As an aside... (click to show/hide)

...I actually consider myself a poor D1 player, especially in bigger (13+) games.  I usually spend the day muddling around cluelessly until I have multiple days of data to work with.

As far as plan Vigilante Voltron is concerned, looks like it's not happening.  That's fine- on further consideration, it'd cause problems if scum has a Plasma Bomb or a watcher.  I still think we need consensus on claiming HP, though that may better wait until D2.

[zombie urist]

Then why the frick would you say that?  Why not just say "gut read" instead of pulling a number out of your nether regions and looking like an idiot?

I don't know. Didn't think everyone would take it so seriously.

Moreover, why do you think that Orangebottle is scum again? I can't seem to find it.

Look more carefully. >_> Basically he's been contradicting himself a lot and when I call him out on it, he just goes "you're stupid" and dismisses my argument.

Then WHY DID YOU!? And you didn't answer the question fully.

I don't think it would help nor hurt the game. Also to try and stop the theory discussion. Obviously my plan didn't work. I think I answered the question fully. Ask again if you need.

-You either ignore questions or answer them incompletely or vaguely.
-I can't find a single instance where you actually scum-hunted throughout the day, the closest thing I can find is you pressuring Orangebottle about why he doesn't want to reveal his HP.
-Everything you've done lately just screams "lynch me!" and quite frankly I'm happy to oblige you now that I know that we won't lose the game.
-Oh, and Failure to Deliver here

1. No I don't. Point out any questions you feel I have answered unsatisfactorily and I'll go through them again.
2. Did you actually read my posts?
3. No.
4. Read through my recent posts.

"I think something's a fallacy" means jack unless you can actually prove which fallacy it is and why it's scummy to commit said fallacy. My god, I actually have to explain this? It should be common sense.

So I looked it up.

2. I did. How should I interpret it?

You should- oh wait, I already explained this:

This is the most disgusting misinterpretation I have ever seen. Read the context you moron.

Toaster:That information's far too useful to the scum, to let them know who to target for kills. We shouldn't give scum the ability to know who will die when targeted and who won't just for the sake of transparency.

I was referring to this post.

Hm. Just because you don't say it in that post doesn't negate the fact that you state the mafia don't have a traditional NK.

3. An element of guessing changes the game significantly.

why would you claim your HP to stop the HP claim discussion, only to continue discussing it? Your reasons don't add up at all.

Maybe you should answer the accusation instead of dismissing it? I think this is a good point to bring up.

4. Thanks for not bothering to actually refute these arguments though.

Just admit it, you have no case and all you're doing is trying to distract me so that I'll back off.
Unless you'd like to summarize that case, as I've already asked you to.

Just admit that everything I've said is true since you don't seem to want to dispute it and instead try shrug it off.
That's the crux of my case. You haven't bothered to actually refute any of these points. Furthermore, you're tunneling.

Orangebottle's Guide to Arguing.
1. Call opposition's arguments stupid without explaining.
2. Insult the opposition.
3. Use big letters.

Because the only people who don't need to pay attention are the scum. They already know who's scum and who's not scum. If he's not paying attention as town, he damn well should be, and I wanted to get his attention.

I'm going to argue the opposite. I think scum need to pay just as much if not more to build fake-cases and avoid slipping.

RiA, if so.
And if his buddy didn't do such, then I suspect ZU has a...counter-attack skill of some sort? Barbed shell and all that 'return-attack-when-attacked' thing? Anyway, if that was the case, then I now wonder why ZU is flailing around...

What's RiA? And please explain the next lines.

PPE'd Toaster.

[zombie urist]

You're being far too careless and lackadaisical with your vote.  Bad town is town, and lynching town is a MISlynch, which is a MIStake.  Your actions smell like someone wanting to lynch someone D1 just to get through it and see the night.  It is extremely relevant which alignment he is, and your voting him without caring which it is is suspicious as hell.

And you're being too concerned with yours. Town get killed/lynched all the time. It's built into the game. That's why I said I don't really care if I die. I know I'll flip town and hopefully everyone rereads my post taking that into account.

[Urist Imiknorris]

Hapah:

Why bring this up?

So that people don't go "Y U NO POST". It was late and I still didn't feel great.

So you're covering for him. Got it. Why?

(Jester, especially if he can win at night).

Lesson time: Mafia Theory 101.

If you win by being nightkilled, the best approach is to antagonize the mafia - the ones who are guaranteed to be able to get you what you want. That is done by playing the best damn town game you possibly can. Trying to appeal to vigs runs the risk of getting lynched instead, and I have never seen a role that wins upon their death regardless of cause.



Anyway, while I agree that mislynches happen and are unfortunate, the fact remains that town's goal is to minimize them. By lynching scum. So I'll ask you again - why don't you care if he's scum or not?

OB:

...It sounded better that way in my head.

Basically, the scum already know who's scum, so paying attention to each and every tiny little detail of every post is less critical to their success than it would be if they were town.

My experience as scum suggests otherwise. If anything, I needed to pay more attention to catch mistakes and tells that I knew were false positives.

ZU:

Then why the frick would you say that?  Why not just say "gut read" instead of pulling a number out of your nether regions and looking like an idiot?

I don't know. Didn't think everyone would take it so seriously.

From this moment forth I shall call this the "Why So Serious?" defense.

What's RiA?

RiA: Refuge in Audacity. Look it up.

And you're being too concerned with yours. Town get killed/lynched all the time. It's built into the game. That's why I said I don't really care if I die. I know I'll flip town and hopefully everyone rereads my post taking that into account.

Ten bucks says you'll flip jester instead of town. When you're killed. At night.

Toaster: Who do you suspect other than Hapah?

[zombie urist]

What's RiA?

RiA: Refuge in Audacity. Look it up.
Ten bucks says you'll flip jester instead of town. When you're killed. At night.

K Thanks. Why answer a question directed at Tiruin?

Also I accept paypal. 

[Urist Imiknorris]

Because you were asking a definition.

[zombie urist]

From Tiruin.

[Tiruin]

That's the same meaning...

Refuge in Audacity. Doesn't matter where the definition comes from (check the BM, sir  )

Anyway...I don't see this on the OP, but (inb4 my post) Mod: What does a lynch do to a hero?

[Orangebottle]

Look more carefully. >_> Basically he's been contradicting himself a lot and when I call him out on it, he just goes "you're stupid" and dismisses my argument.

Or, you're saying things that make no sense to me whatsoever and/or are hilariously stupid, and I'm calling them stupid because that's what they are. Where do I contradict myself a lot? Where do I simply dismiss your arguments as stupid and not attempt to explain them at all? Where's your evidence?

So I looked it up.

Or, I read the OP, received my role, and came to the logical conclusion that the Mafia would have damaging abilities. Because they're Mafia and they need to kill us. Did you have any reason to believe that they didn't have any damaging abilities whatsoever?

Have some context: Toaster's accusing me of knowing that the scum have no mafiakill(this is before Dariush said that they did not) because I'm scum. I respond with my reasons for thinking this - the OP states that there's an HP system, and I assume that the scum will have damaging abilities. I then ask Toaster if he had a reason to think that there were no damaging abilities on the scumteam.

Where's the Burden of Proof fallacy committed? I don't see it. The burden is on Toaster to prove that I'm scum.

Hm. Just because you don't say it in that post doesn't negate the fact that you state the mafia don't have a traditional NK.

Does the word 'time' ring any bells? Mean anything to you at all? At the time of the post I was referring to, the one that Toaster was accusing me of being scum for, I had not said that. That is the whole point of that statement that went way over your head for some mysterious reason. There are other factors that make my later mention of the lack of a mafiakill non-scummy(the mod saying it, stated reasons for me to believe that the scum have no NK).

Maybe you should answer the accusation instead of dismissing it? I think this is a good point to bring up.

Yes, the element of guessing changes it. Not enough to change the result; either the scum knows how much HP each townie has, or they know how much HP each townie has lost and can, either way, target people they think will die when targeted with a damaging ability.

Just admit that everything I've said is true since you don't seem to want to dispute it and instead try shrug it off.
That's the crux of my case. You haven't bothered to actually refute any of these points.

All of these points that add up to...what, exactly?

Furthermore, you're tunneling.

Hahaha, no. That's false.
I have FOS'd Toaster and Imiknorris while investigating them for pressure. I have also voted for Shakerag. Please make sure you're right before spouting stupid bullshit, thanks.

Orangebottle's Guide to Arguing.
1. Call opposition's arguments stupid without explaining.
2. Insult the opposition.
3. Use big letters.

Zombie Urist's Guide to Mafia:
1. Refuge in Audacity(that's what RiA means) whenever possible.
2. Be a massive hypocrite.
PPE:
Imiknorris:

OB:

...It sounded better that way in my head.

Basically, the scum already know who's scum, so paying attention to each and every tiny little detail of every post is less critical to their success than it would be if they were town.

My experience as scum suggests otherwise. If anything, I needed to pay more attention to catch mistakes and tells that I knew were false positives.

Huh. It's the opposite for me.