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[Orangebottle]

Tiruin:

Well, from the names, I'd choose Ashe because of the verbal pronunciation and the lore behind the character, also because I like ranged characters.

But in terms of Mafia, I guess...

Soraka - Perhaps a Doctor//Healer type
Ashe - Watcher-type//Perhaps a roleblock on ultimate and...delay?
Cho'Gath - Fighter class, spells are based on attack and crippling the enemy

So...I guess I'd pick Ashe due to her (most probable) watcher ability to try to see who does what, and connect them later if claims are made.

Orangebottle: Why question on the roles?

It give me insight into the way you play; It's basically asking you,"Would you prefer to be a doctor, watcher, or vigilante, and why?" Even though the roles aren't quite as clear-cut as that, there are still some things I can deduce from the information.
Toaster:

OB, you tipped your hand here.  Before Dariush said so, you knew that the mafia didn't have a pure mafiakill.  How?  Because you here pointed out that the HP totals would allow the mafia to target their killing better, before it had been made public.  You knew too much too soon about the mafia, and the only logical conclusion is that you knew that because you are mafia.

Or, I read the OP, received my role, and came to the logical conclusion that the Mafia would have damaging abilities. Because they're Mafia and they need to kill us. Did you have any reason to believe that they didn't have any damaging abilities whatsoever?

[Shakerag]

Shake: Target will shift with suspicion. I'm not going to lay into someone just because I did it the day before. I'm not very good at it (TUNNEL TUNNEL CHUNNEL TUNNEL), but I'm trying to work on it.

Well, I was kind of more referring to your abilities.  Like ... if you think someone is scummy, do you keep attacking just that person at night to get thier hp down, or "spread the love around" to see if anything interesting pops up. 

Also, why are you throwing around blue without making it look like you've a reason to? 

Alsoalso:  Yes, I'd claim.  Why the hell not?

He isn't my scumbuddy, but if he was, I'd be totally willing to bus him should the need arise.

Why are you rolefishing?

Seriously?  *eyebrow raise*  How is that even rolefishing, and how would you even effectively rolefish in a game like this anyway? 

Anyway, upgrading my Toaster vote.  I'm getting flashbacks to the whole "Bookthras and early massclaim" thing.  While you're not calling for an early one, you're bringing it up early, and I'm feeling this is a set-up for your future fakeclaim plans. 

Also:  Orangebottle has a good point about the mafiakill.  Why give everyone damaging abilities and HP, if the scumteam has an insta-kill?


Dariush: If, for example, I attacked someone at night for three damage, my target used an ability to negate one point of damage, and my target was also targeted by a 1pt protection ability, would I get any info mentioning this? 


zu: Clarify your Toaster vote.

I would improve my hunting tactics and try to nail scum and build a case that causes everyone to vote for them and not me.

Gee, you make it sound so simple.  It's a wonder that anyone who's town gets lynched at LYLO with strategy like that floating around.

Shakerag: Which would you rather have: more damage or more HP?

That'd largely depend on what kind of numbers we're talking about.  Just trying to think generally, I'd go with more damage, so I could be more vig-like.  I don't think I've gotten that role yet.

[zombie urist]

zu: Clarify your Toaster vote.

Mostly for this quote.

That's a reasonless vote if I've ever seen one.  Are you voting me because I think we should claim HP at mass claim?  It's not like I'm demanding it- I'm seeking a consensus before a massclaim happens, so we don't split then with half going one way and half the other.

It's pretty obvious that Toaster is concerned about the vote on him, which started as a pressure vote.

Shakerag: Which would you rather have: more damage or more HP?

That'd largely depend on what kind of numbers we're talking about.  Just trying to think generally, I'd go with more damage, so I could be more vig-like.  I don't think I've gotten that role yet.

Since this is a BYO, why didn't you just pick a guy with more damage?

[Dariush]

Dariush: If, for example, I attacked someone at night for three damage, my target used an ability to negate one point of damage, and my target was also targeted by a 1pt protection ability, would I get any info mentioning this?

Dunno. I've thought about what to do in case several people attack someone who's only able to block part of the damage and didn't reach a definite conclusion. Unless the night's events prove to be far too unexpected for my liking, I'll inform only one random attacker.

[Hapah]

PFP

ZU: The day-end-time makes sense, I think Dar's in Ukraine. So that'd be sometime in the evening there.

Shake: Oh. Probably just beat up the one scummy person.

Orangebottle got blue because I thought the information gained by Toaster's suggestion (and my addition) was actually pretty valuable: Any protectors/healers know where they are needed, and scum can't easily ration out kills. ZU voted Toaster over a suggestion and backed it up with a case of "because he's scum".

And you might be scared of redirectors or ability-stealers (not sure what LoL hero would have either of those, but there's been a lot of new heroes since I last played). If one of those knew that you had an OMGWTFBBQ face-melter of an ulti, it might not be so useful.

[zombie urist]

I was talking about Toaster's interpretation. The timezone thing was for me to know when day ends.

[Toaster]

Hapah:

Toaster: But wouldn't that be true even if there was a scumkill? Knowing HP totals would let scum line up kills better whether or not they had a "real" scumkill.

That may be true, but I expected that, given this is a Mafia game, the mafia team would have a mafia kill.  Guess not.


Orangebottle:

Toaster:

OB, you tipped your hand here.  Before Dariush said so, you knew that the mafia didn't have a pure mafiakill.  How?  Because you here pointed out that the HP totals would allow the mafia to target their killing better, before it had been made public.  You knew too much too soon about the mafia, and the only logical conclusion is that you knew that because you are mafia.

Or, I read the OP, received my role, and came to the logical conclusion that the Mafia would have damaging abilities. Because they're Mafia and they need to kill us. Did you have any reason to believe that they didn't have any damaging abilities whatsoever?

It's never stated anywhere that the mafia doesn't have a direct kill, though.  Also, see response to Hapah.

He isn't my scumbuddy, but if he was, I'd be totally willing to bus him should the need arise.

Why are you rolefishing?

Seriously?  *eyebrow raise*  How is that even rolefishing, and how would you even effectively rolefish in a game like this anyway? 

It's rolefishing because you're asking him how he plans to use his actual abilities, not a hypothetical ability set.

And you'd rolefish here like you'd rolefish in any game.  How does the gametype change that?

Anyway, upgrading my Toaster vote.  I'm getting flashbacks to the whole "Bookthras and early massclaim" thing.  While you're not calling for an early one, you're bringing it up early, and I'm feeling this is a set-up for your future fakeclaim plans. 

...

What?  Are you trying to apply Book's meta to me?   Refresh my memory- could you remind me as to which game you're referencing?  Also, you're trying to equate discussion of a massclaim with a call for one.  This is a terrible, terrible, vote.


ZU:

That's a reasonless vote if I've ever seen one.  Are you voting me because I think we should claim HP at mass claim?  It's not like I'm demanding it- I'm seeking a consensus before a massclaim happens, so we don't split then with half going one way and half the other.

It's pretty obvious that Toaster is concerned about the vote on him, which started as a pressure vote.

I'm not concerned about your vote being on me- I'm attacking you for voting for terrible reasons.  It being on me is irrelevant.

[zombie urist]

You are absolutely right. Unvote.

Better case coming later.

[Orangebottle]

Unvote.
Toaster:

Toaster:

OB, you tipped your hand here.  Before Dariush said so, you knew that the mafia didn't have a pure mafiakill.  How?  Because you here pointed out that the HP totals would allow the mafia to target their killing better, before it had been made public.  You knew too much too soon about the mafia, and the only logical conclusion is that you knew that because you are mafia.

Or, I read the OP, received my role, and came to the logical conclusion that the Mafia would have damaging abilities. Because they're Mafia and they need to kill us. Did you have any reason to believe that they didn't have any damaging abilities whatsoever?

It's never stated anywhere that the mafia doesn't have a direct kill, though.

While I know you're talking about the OP, your statement is entirely correct when applied to the post that you're attacking me for.

Toaster:That information's far too useful to the scum, to let them know who to target for kills. We shouldn't give scum the ability to know who will die when targeted and who won't just for the sake of transparency.

Where did I say that the scum definitely do not have a mafiakill? I did not. I said that the HP information would help scum kill us. If scum actually had a mafiakill(as Dariush has denied), the information would be twice as useful because the scum could MK townies with high health and use whatever damaging abilities they have on low-health townies.

Also, the mere existence of a damage/health system implies the lack of a mafiakill.
Shakerag

Anyway, upgrading my Toaster vote.  I'm getting flashbacks to the whole "Bookthras and early massclaim" thing.  While you're not calling for an early one, you're bringing it up early, and I'm feeling this is a set-up for your future fakeclaim plans. 

zu: Clarify your Toaster vote.

This post is just...wat. How does asking people if they want to claim HP lead to a fakeclaim setup? Why don't you clarify your Toaster vote? What do you mean ""bookthras and early massclaim" thing"?

[zombie urist]

I am now 90% sure that OB and Toaster are the scumteam.

[IronyOwl]

zombie urist:

Don't see a reason to since is very easy to fakeclaim and AFAIK there's no way to check. Don't know if they correlate to in game HP or something though.

I can't help but notice you're commenting on game mechanics but not scumhunting. Your last relevant post consisted of answering two questions, then throwing one of them at someone else and asking something probably irrelevant.

That's very prone to error. Furthermore, I still can't see why anyone would bother to fakeclaim HP.

Toaster

I'm voting you cuz you're scuuuum.

Lazy. What does "very prone to error" even mean, especially when you can't fathom why anyone would lie about it.

zu: Clarify your Toaster vote.

Mostly for this quote.

That's a reasonless vote if I've ever seen one.  Are you voting me because I think we should claim HP at mass claim?  It's not like I'm demanding it- I'm seeking a consensus before a massclaim happens, so we don't split then with half going one way and half the other.

It's pretty obvious that Toaster is concerned about the vote on him, which started as a pressure vote.

Except it was completely reasonless and pressureless to begin with. You can't just throw out bullshit and then claim someone's panicking when they call you on it, which is exactly what you've done here.

Shakerag: Which would you rather have: more damage or more HP?

That'd largely depend on what kind of numbers we're talking about.  Just trying to think generally, I'd go with more damage, so I could be more vig-like.  I don't think I've gotten that role yet.

Since this is a BYO, why didn't you just pick a guy with more damage?

...why are you rolefishing?

I am now 90% sure that OB and Toaster are the scumteam.

Haha no. I'm a better player than you, and I'm not that certain. Thus, you're wrong, and that certainty you're feeling is actually complacency and sloth.

Explain why I'm wrong or get back to work, scum.



Orangebottle:

Hapah

Toaster: Regarding the theory point, what if everyone claimed how much they're missing instead of how much they have? We'd still get about the same level of information (someone missing 1 isn't bad off, someone missing 3 or 4 is looking pretty rough), but it doesn't let scum easily square up the numbers to blow everyone away.

Except, that's just as helpful to the scum. Your counter-theory has changed very little.

Not unless they can guess max hp. Why gloss over that crucial difference like that?

[Orangebottle]

Orangebottle:

Hapah

Toaster: Regarding the theory point, what if everyone claimed how much they're missing instead of how much they have? We'd still get about the same level of information (someone missing 1 isn't bad off, someone missing 3 or 4 is looking pretty rough), but it doesn't let scum easily square up the numbers to blow everyone away.

Except, that's just as helpful to the scum. Your counter-theory has changed very little.

Not unless they can guess max hp. Why gloss over that crucial difference like that?

Because, were I on the scumteam with that information, I'd go,"Well, looks like <insert player here> has lost a lot of health already, let's get rid of him/her/it." It still helps them target their damage abilities.

[IronyOwl]

Orangebottle:

Orangebottle:

Hapah

Toaster: Regarding the theory point, what if everyone claimed how much they're missing instead of how much they have? We'd still get about the same level of information (someone missing 1 isn't bad off, someone missing 3 or 4 is looking pretty rough), but it doesn't let scum easily square up the numbers to blow everyone away.

Except, that's just as helpful to the scum. Your counter-theory has changed very little.

Not unless they can guess max hp. Why gloss over that crucial difference like that?

Because, were I on the scumteam with that information, I'd go,"Well, looks like <insert player here> has lost a lot of health already, let's get rid of him/her/it." It still helps them target their damage abilities.

Several problems with this.

For starters, either they're going to know about that damage because they caused it, or low-health targets will hopefully be suspicious targets anyway. I don't see perfect knowledge of town-inflicted damage being the key to a scum victory, unless you think healing will make that much of a difference.

More importantly, "it helps the scumteam" isn't what you said. "It's identical to listing the precise damage needed to kill everyone" is what you said, and that clearly isn't the case here.

[zombie urist]

I can't help but notice you're commenting on game mechanics but not scumhunting. Your last relevant post consisted of answering two questions, then throwing one of them at someone else and asking something probably irrelevant.

Ok.

Lazy. What does "very prone to error" even mean, especially when you can't fathom why anyone would lie about it.

There are many ways to fuck up the math involved. Also it may depend on whether damage or healing is applied first, whether you can be healed over max, etc.

Except it was completely reasonless and pressureless to begin with. You can't just throw out bullshit and then claim someone's panicking when they call you on it, which is exactly what you've done here.

Ok.

...why are you rolefishing?

Huh? Explain why that is a rolefish.

Haha no. I'm a better player than you, and I'm not that certain. Thus, you're wrong, and that certainty you're feeling is actually complacency and sloth.
Explain why I'm wrong or get back to work, scum.

Well, you're wrong that I'm scum. 

Orangebottle:

Also, the mere existence of a damage/health system implies the lack of a mafiakill.

Why? Explain.

It give me insight into the way you play; It's basically asking you,"Would you prefer to be a doctor, watcher, or vigilante, and why?" Even though the roles aren't quite as clear-cut as that, there are still some things I can deduce from the information.

Please share this insight. I don't play LoL so I'm not familiar with the champions. So how would a non-LoL player know about the doctor/watcher/vig thing?

You know, just to stop the HP claim theory, I'm going to claim I have 4 HP.

[Shakerag]

He isn't my scumbuddy, but if he was, I'd be totally willing to bus him should the need arise.

Why are you rolefishing?

Seriously?  *eyebrow raise*  How is that even rolefishing, and how would you even effectively rolefish in a game like this anyway? 

It's rolefishing because you're asking him how he plans to use his actual abilities, not a hypothetical ability set.

And you'd rolefish here like you'd rolefish in any game.  How does the gametype change that?

Anyway, upgrading my Toaster vote.  I'm getting flashbacks to the whole "Bookthras and early massclaim" thing.  While you're not calling for an early one, you're bringing it up early, and I'm feeling this is a set-up for your future fakeclaim plans. 

...

What?  Are you trying to apply Book's meta to me?   Refresh my memory- could you remind me as to which game you're referencing?  Also, you're trying to equate discussion of a massclaim with a call for one.  This is a terrible, terrible, vote.

Given that I have no idea what those abilities are or what they do (or even if they are multi-target or not), how does this help me rolefish?  I'm looking to establish behavior patters, so if it seems like he's not doing what he said he would do, that's worth calling him on it. 

In reference to early mass claim and Bookthras, seems like most of the talk came out of BSER.  An example.  After going back and re-reading said discussion, I grant that Bookthras was more talking about proposing an early claim, not talking about massclaiming early.  Such is my memory.  However, having said that, I still find it suspicious that you're getting people to think about (and possibly agree on) what info to massclaim later.  What benefit is there to talking about claiming HP totals now as opposed to later on when a massclaim is called for? 


OB: See above.  Feels like Toaster is trying to see what info everyone wants/is willing to share so as to better craft a fakeclaim for later.