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[Orangebottle]

Unvote
Zombie:

Orangebottle:

Also, the mere existence of a damage/health system implies the lack of a mafiakill.

Why? Explain.

Because it makes no sense to implement some complicated health/damage system when the scum can just instantly kill anyone every night. Did that really need explaining?

It give me insight into the way you play; It's basically asking you,"Would you prefer to be a doctor, watcher, or vigilante, and why?" Even though the roles aren't quite as clear-cut as that, there are still some things I can deduce from the information.

Please share this insight.

Well, for one, he does not prefer taking direct action against his suspicions at night, meaning he likely has a stronger day game.

I don't play LoL so I'm not familiar with the champions. So how would a non-LoL player know about the doctor/watcher/vig thing?

By doing what Tiruin did, and looking it up. It's not that hard.

You know, just to stop the HP claim theory, I'm going to claim I have 4 HP.

That's incredibly stupid. As town, you've opened yourself up to the scum planning on taking you out. As scum, you've done an incredible flub by making it easier for the town to kill you. The only ways I can see this possibly being beneficial to you is:

A) It stops discussion(and you're scum).
B) It encourages everyone to claim their HP(and you're scum).
C) Nobody's scumhunting because of the claim theory and it stops discussion of said theory(maybe town?).
C clearly hasn't happened. Why'd you do it, Zombie?
Irony:

For starters, either they're going to know about that damage because they caused it, or low-health targets will hopefully be suspicious targets anyway. I don't see perfect knowledge of town-inflicted damage being the key to a scum victory, unless you think healing will make that much of a difference.

Suspicious targets that are town are still town. The more people scum can take out in one night, the better, and the information helps them plan that out.

More importantly, "it helps the scumteam" isn't what you said. "It's identical to listing the precise damage needed to kill everyone" is what you said, and that clearly isn't the case here.

Listing the precise damage needed to kill everyone helps the scumteam target their damage abilities.
Listing the precise damage everyone already took helps the scumteam target their damage abilities.
I'm not seeing much of a difference there.
PPE: Shakerag:

In reference to early mass claim and Bookthras, seems like most of the talk came out of BSER.  An example.  After going back and re-reading said discussion, I grant that Bookthras was more talking about proposing an early claim, not talking about massclaiming early.  Such is my memory.  However, having said that, I still find it suspicious that you're getting people to think about (and possibly agree on) what info to massclaim later.  What benefit is there to talking about claiming HP totals now as opposed to later on when a massclaim is called for? 


OB: See above.  Feels like Toaster is trying to see what info everyone wants/is willing to share so as to better craft a fakeclaim for later.

I see. That makes a bit more sense.

[IronyOwl]

ZU:

Lazy. What does "very prone to error" even mean, especially when you can't fathom why anyone would lie about it.

There are many ways to fuck up the math involved. Also it may depend on whether damage or healing is applied first, whether you can be healed over max, etc.

No there aren't. Give me some examples of how we're going to fuck up subtracting 2 from 6 because we can't ask Dariush how healing works.

...why are you rolefishing?

Huh? Explain why that is a rolefish.

You pointed to a hypothetical tradeoff question with "Why didn't you just pick a more damaging champion?" That's either completely and utterly irrelevant, or it's hoping to find out more about his role selection process.

You know, just to stop the HP claim theory, I'm going to claim I have 4 HP.

The hell? What does this accomplish, nevermind how it "stops the HP claim theory" (whatever that's supposed to mean)?


Orangebottle:

Irony:

For starters, either they're going to know about that damage because they caused it, or low-health targets will hopefully be suspicious targets anyway. I don't see perfect knowledge of town-inflicted damage being the key to a scum victory, unless you think healing will make that much of a difference.

Suspicious targets that are town are still town. The more people scum can take out in one night, the better, and the information helps them plan that out.

What makes you say scum will prioritize killing for quantity over quality? Or, I suppose a better question might be, what makes you say it'll be better for them if they target for quantity over quality?

More importantly, "it helps the scumteam" isn't what you said. "It's identical to listing the precise damage needed to kill everyone" is what you said, and that clearly isn't the case here.

Listing the precise damage needed to kill everyone helps the scumteam target their damage abilities.
Listing the precise damage everyone already took helps the scumteam target their damage abilities.
I'm not seeing much of a difference there.

This is scummily disingenuous. You don't see a difference between an estimate and a hard number?

I mean, I guess you think ZU didn't actually say anything with his claim, since everyone could've looked at their own HP totals and assumed he had roughly the same, right?

[zombie urist]

Because it makes no sense to implement some complicated health/damage system when the scum can just instantly kill anyone every night. Did that really need explaining?

Makes sense to me. Taking away the mafiakill changes the game quite a bit.

Well, for one, he does not prefer taking direct action against his suspicions at night, meaning he likely has a stronger day game.

BS detected.

By doing what Tiruin did, and looking it up. It's not that hard.

Good point. Know what's even easier? Asking whether he would rather be a doc/watcher/vig without having to guess how the champion's abilities transcribe to mafia roles.

That's incredibly stupid. As town, you've opened yourself up to the scum planning on taking you out. As scum, you've done an incredible flub by making it easier for the town to kill you. The only ways I can see this possibly being beneficial to you is:
A) It stops discussion(and you're scum).
B) It encourages everyone to claim their HP(and you're scum).
C) Nobody's scumhunting because of the claim theory and it stops discussion of said theory(maybe town?).
C clearly hasn't happened. Why'd you do it, Zombie?

So you all would shut up and scumhunt more. I really don't see how this information benefits either side. Secondly, how do you know I'm telling the truth? What if I actually have 7 HP? or 3?

More importantly, "it helps the scumteam" isn't what you said. "It's identical to listing the precise damage needed to kill everyone" is what you said, and that clearly isn't the case here.
Listing the precise damage needed to kill everyone helps the scumteam target their damage abilities.
Listing the precise damage everyone already took helps the scumteam target their damage abilities.
I'm not seeing much of a difference there.

I see a difference. Suppose Dariush has already taken 3 points of damage. How many more damage points do you need to kill him?

PPE: IO

[zombie urist]

No there aren't. Give me some examples of how we're going to fuck up subtracting 2 from 6 because we can't ask Dariush how healing works.

False claiming the numbers of damage, damage reduction, RBs.

You pointed to a hypothetical tradeoff question with "Why didn't you just pick a more damaging champion?" That's either completely and utterly irrelevant, or it's hoping to find out more about his role selection process.

Huh.

The hell? What does this accomplish, nevermind how it "stops the HP claim theory" (whatever that's supposed to mean)?

Bleh. Hopefully everyone will shut up about theory and get on with the scumhunting.

[Orangebottle]

Irony:

Orangebottle:

Irony:

For starters, either they're going to know about that damage because they caused it, or low-health targets will hopefully be suspicious targets anyway. I don't see perfect knowledge of town-inflicted damage being the key to a scum victory, unless you think healing will make that much of a difference.

Suspicious targets that are town are still town. The more people scum can take out in one night, the better, and the information helps them plan that out.

What makes you say scum will prioritize killing for quantity over quality? Or, I suppose a better question might be, what makes you say it'll be better for them if they target for quantity over quality?

It gets the game to LYLO faster. And, the faster scum gets to LYLO, the less chances they have to cock it up.

More importantly, "it helps the scumteam" isn't what you said. "It's identical to listing the precise damage needed to kill everyone" is what you said, and that clearly isn't the case here.

Listing the precise damage needed to kill everyone helps the scumteam target their damage abilities.
Listing the precise damage everyone already took helps the scumteam target their damage abilities.
I'm not seeing much of a difference there.

This is scummily disingenuous. You don't see a difference between an estimate and a hard number?

The difference is that the plans are less accurate because they don't have the exact numbers. The result is essentially the same.

I mean, I guess you think ZU didn't actually say anything with his claim, since everyone could've looked at their own HP totals and assumed he had roughly the same, right?

Wat.
My overall point in this is that it's better to keep the HP numbers a secret, period. Not allowing the scum to guess at it in the first place makes it harder for them to pick off townies.
Zombie:

By doing what Tiruin did, and looking it up. It's not that hard.

Good point. Know what's even easier? Asking whether he would rather be a doc/watcher/vig without having to guess how the champion's abilities transcribe to mafia roles.

Wait, so I'm scum for not asking easy questions?

That's incredibly stupid. As town, you've opened yourself up to the scum planning on taking you out. As scum, you've done an incredible flub by making it easier for the town to kill you. The only ways I can see this possibly being beneficial to you is:
A) It stops discussion(and you're scum).
B) It encourages everyone to claim their HP(and you're scum).
C) Nobody's scumhunting because of the claim theory and it stops discussion of said theory(maybe town?).
C clearly hasn't happened. Why'd you do it, Zombie?

So you all would shut up and scumhunt more. I really don't see how this information benefits either side.

'k scumbukkit. Plenty of scumhunting is going on. As I said, C hasn't happened. People are scumhunting. So, you're shutting down game-related discussion with no real reason as to why.

Also, your IQ must be incredibly low if you don't know how knowledge of HP can benefit the town or the scum.

Secondly, how do you know I'm telling the truth? What if I actually have 7 HP? or 3?

I don't. Hell, how do you know I'm telling the truth? I could be an invincible day-killer with a role-cop ability. It still doesn't change the fact that saying any number for your HP is incredibly stupid because it makes you a target, and that you had no reason to say it in the first place.

I see a difference. Suppose Dariush has already taken 3 points of damage. How many more damage points do you need to kill him?

I abstain from answering; the only thing I have to base the answer off of is my own HP, and I'm not giving that up. The scum would likely have multiple roles to base the HP off of and a private chat in which to conspire.

[zombie urist]

Wait, so I'm scum for not asking easy questions?

Nah but the question you asked sucked.

'k scumbukkit. Plenty of scumhunting is going on. As I said, C hasn't happened. People are scumhunting. So, you're shutting down game-related discussion with no real reason as to why.
Also, your IQ must be incredibly low if you don't know how knowledge of HP can benefit the town or the scum.

Bleh. Shutting down theory in exchange for more scumhunting is worth it. Maybe my IQ is low, but I really don't see how knowledge of HP can useful. Interesting how you say that knowledge of HP can benefit town. What made your opinion change?

I don't. Hell, how do you know I'm telling the truth? I could be an invincible day-killer with a role-cop ability. It still doesn't change the fact that saying any number for your HP is incredibly stupid because it makes you a target, and that you had no reason to say it in the first place.

For what? Are we going to lynch someone who has 5 hp as opposed to 4 hp? Is scum going to choose to kill a guy with 3 hp over 5 hp? Is massclaiming at LyLo also stupid because it gives out info to the scum team?

I see a difference. Suppose Dariush has already taken 3 points of damage. How many more damage points do you need to kill him?

I abstain from answering; the only thing I have to base the answer off of is my own HP, and I'm not giving that up. The scum would likely have multiple roles to base the HP off of and a private chat in which to conspire.

Spoiler: big image (click to show/hide)

New question: Suppose Dariush has 3 HP left. How many more damage points do you need to kill him?

[Hapah]

ZU: The thing is, this To Claim or Not To Claim thing needs to be aired out now. A consensus today (which appears to be leaning towards no?) will be valuable come D3 or D4. Your decision to try to stop the discussion on the topic entirely, and then giving up your HP total, really just leaves me confused more than anything.

OB: The two options are different by degrees; and I feel that you are only focusing on the negative. Yeah, the scum get some more information, but so do the healers/protectors/watchers.

Extend.

PPE:

OB: But exact HP isn't a scum IWIN button. There are too many other factors (heals/protects/blocks) that could mess it up for them.

[Orangebottle]

Zombie:

Bleh. Shutting down theory in exchange for more scumhunting is worth it. Maybe my IQ is low, but I really don't see how knowledge of HP can useful. Interesting how you say that knowledge of HP can benefit town. What made your opinion change?

It's all about ability use, Zombie. My opinion is that the benefit scum get from it outweighs the benefit town gets from it- It never changed.

I don't. Hell, how do you know I'm telling the truth? I could be an invincible day-killer with a role-cop ability. It still doesn't change the fact that saying any number for your HP is incredibly stupid because it makes you a target, and that you had no reason to say it in the first place.

For what? Are we going to lynch someone who has 5 hp as opposed to 4 hp?

No. That'd be worse than claiming HP.

Is scum going to choose to kill a guy with 3 hp over 5 hp?

Uh, yeah, that's kinda the whole reason I object to HP claiming. A guy with 3 hp has less health and is easier to kill than a guy with 5 hp. Basic math.

 

Is massclaiming at LyLo also stupid because it gives out info to the scum team?

Wat.
Just.
Wat.
Not only are we quite far from LYLO, but this question is also really irrelevant and dumb.

New question: Suppose Dariush has 3 HP left. How many more damage points do you need to kill him?

Three.
Hapah:

OB:Yeah, the scum get some more information, but so do the healers/protectors/watchers.

Meh. True. There are just too many "What if"s for me to get behind claiming HP.

OB: But exact HP isn't a scum IWIN button. There are too many other factors (heals/protects/blocks) that could mess it up for them.
[/quote]
While that's true, this is a BYO. I wouldn't put it above Dariush to give the scum crazy abilities for their Ults.

[zombie urist]

It's all about ability use, Zombie. My opinion is that the benefit scum get from it outweighs the benefit town gets from it- It never changed.

Ok.

Uh, yeah, that's kinda the whole reason I object to HP claiming. A guy with 3 hp has less health and is easier to kill than a guy with 5 hp. Basic math.

Which is why everyone always chooses the characters with high HP in LoL.

Is massclaiming at LyLo also stupid because it gives out info to the scum team?

Wat.
Just.
Wat.
Not only are we quite far from LYLO, but this question is also really irrelevant and dumb.

No not really.

New question: Suppose Dariush has 3 HP left. How many more damage points do you need to kill him?

Three.

Good job. Now do you see why

Listing the precise damage needed to kill everyone helps the scumteam target their damage abilities.
Listing the precise damage everyone already took helps the scumteam target their damage abilities.

are different?

ZU: The thing is, this To Claim or Not To Claim thing needs to be aired out now. A consensus today (which appears to be leaning towards no?) will be valuable come D3 or D4. Your decision to try to stop the discussion on the topic entirely, and then giving up your HP total, really just leaves me confused more than anything.

You're probably right. Claiming was kinda an impulse thing.

[Urist Imiknorris]

Hapah:

UI: Alright. What about doing 1 damage, or doing 2 damage and hurting yourself for 1?

Depends on how many HP I had.

ZU:

I am now 90% sure that OB and Toaster are the scumteam.

How are you so sure?

Maybe my IQ is low, but I really don't see how knowledge of HP can useful.

Then why'd you give yours?

OB:

I abstain from answering; the only thing I have to base the answer off of is my own HP, and I'm not giving that up. The scum would likely have multiple roles to base the HP off of and a private chat in which to conspire.

a) You could have just said "I don't fucking know."
b) You also have ZU's HP claim.
c) How is the bolded section relevant?

[Phantom of The Library]

IronyOwl:

Phantom, let's say you have two suspects, and everyone else is pretty much on board with them. The first is scummy to the point where you're pretty certain he's scum, the second is similar but you're not entirely positive it's not just noobtells.

The first suspect claims, however, that because of his abilities, anyone who's voting him when he's lynched takes damage; thus, lynching him really isn't a good idea, or at least, is a bad idea right now. What do you make of this, and what do you do?

Hhhhm, tough one.

I'd say, call his bluff. If he is scum, then we have to kill him either way. No sense in backing off just because he says we're going to take casualties.  Although, I would probably advise the rest of the town to place the minimum number of votes necessary for a guaranteed lynch on him, rather than dog-piling, just to be safe.

Native, would you rather have a damage dealing, roleblocking, or shielding move?

Roleblocking move. It's more likely to be useful than a straight damage dealing move.

Native: What about a shielding move? Why did that not factor into your decision at all?  Someone seems to have their scum mindset on.



Hapah:
Your total amount of scumhunting today amounts to an entire wopping zero.  All you've done is answer and give RVS questions and throw around a couple of FoSs in the same post as an random vote. 

Orange: It's a new mechanic; trying to build consensus now on how to treat it is the right move. I had an idea that I thought would decrease the risk with no real downside, so I suggested it.

ZU: See above.

Tir: Thanks for the answer. Regarding Toaster's "question", I think calling it a question might be a bit generous. I thought it was a joke until he followed up, and now I don't quite know what to think.

UI: Alright. What about doing 1 damage, or doing 2 damage and hurting yourself for 1?

Shake: Would you claim if you were about to get lynched D2 if you felt you had a really powerful ulti?

PPE:

Toaster: But wouldn't that be true even if there was a scumkill? Knowing HP totals would let scum line up kills better whether or not they had a "real" scumkill.

If they're suspicious enough to warrant an FoS, then they're suspicious enough to warrant a vote, why did you use you vote for an RVS question, when you're apparently suspicious of two people?




zombie urist:

I am now 90% sure that OB and Toaster are the scumteam.

How are you so certain?  We're not even 48 hours into the game, and you're already 90% sure that you know who the scum are?  Please bequeath the unlimited and holy wisdom that allowed you to perform this miraculous deduction upon us.

So you all would shut up and scumhunt more. I really don't see how this information benefits either side. Secondly, how do you know I'm telling the truth? What if I actually have 7 HP? or 3?

So then why did you claim at all? In one post you're claiming that you're against the idea of claiming HP and in the next you're claiming. 


Let us see:

That's very prone to error. Furthermore, I still can't see why anyone would bother to fakeclaim HP.

Toaster

So you all would shut up and scumhunt more. I really don't see how this information benefits either side. Secondly, how do you know I'm telling the truth? What if I actually have 7 HP? or 3?

So you're saying that you could be fakeclaiming after saying that there wasn't a point to doing so.

Could you please explain your heel-face turn?  So that we would shut up and scumhunt more isn't a good enough reason for making a hypocrite of yourself.  If you really wanted us to scumhunt more, then why not do it yourself?

PPE: Ninja'd by Imiknorris.

[Orangebottle]

Zombie:

Good job. Now do you see why

Listing the precise damage needed to kill everyone helps the scumteam target their damage abilities.
Listing the precise damage everyone already took helps the scumteam target their damage abilities.

are different?

I've already said that one requires a little guess work. Why are we still discussing this? I thought you wanted to stop talking about the HP thing.

Speaking of which, why would you claim your HP to stop the HP claim theory discussion, only to continue discussing it? Your reasons don't add up at all.
Imiknorris:

OB:

I abstain from answering; the only thing I have to base the answer off of is my own HP, and I'm not giving that up. The scum would likely have multiple roles to base the HP off of and a private chat in which to conspire.

a) You could have just said "I don't fucking know."
b) You also have ZU's HP claim.
c) How is the bolded section relevant?

a)True.
b)Also true.
c)Pointing out that I don't have those resources, and thus cannot guess like the scum would in that situation.

[Toaster]

Dariush:  At one point you said there would be a guaranteed third party.  Is this still the case?


ZU is reading jester to me in a very bad way.  I've seen him play well before- now he's just being intentionally stupid.


Shakerag:

Given that I have no idea what those abilities are or what they do (or even if they are multi-target or not), how does this help me rolefish?  I'm looking to establish behavior patters, so if it seems like he's not doing what he said he would do, that's worth calling him on it. 

In reference to early mass claim and Bookthras, seems like most of the talk came out of BSER.  An example.  After going back and re-reading said discussion, I grant that Bookthras was more talking about proposing an early claim, not talking about massclaiming early.  Such is my memory.  However, having said that, I still find it suspicious that you're getting people to think about (and possibly agree on) what info to massclaim later.  What benefit is there to talking about claiming HP totals now as opposed to later on when a massclaim is called for? 

Because if we talk about it while we're actually mass claiming, it's going to cause a confused state where half the people are claiming it and half aren't, while people are attacking each other for claiming/not claiming it.  Deciding ahead of time lets us mass claim in a controlled manner when the appropriate time comes.

OB: See above.  Feels like Toaster is trying to see what info everyone wants/is willing to share so as to better craft a fakeclaim for later.

I'm insulted that you think I would need help coming up with a fake claim as scum.



Rest will have to come in morning- got distracted.  Now too tired to finish reading.

[Tiruin]

I am now 90% sure that OB and Toaster are the scumteam.

And until your next post after this one, you have no vote on them, not pressuring them or anything but stating an opinion.

Restate: What kind of scumhunting are you trying to pull?

Unvote, zombie urist

You firstly voted Toaster on an...unstable foundation and you aren't pushing those suspects of yours?

Spoiler: Then this (click to show/hide)

Orangebottle:

Also, the mere existence of a damage/health system implies the lack of a mafiakill.

Why? Explain.

It give me insight into the way you play; It's basically asking you,"Would you prefer to be a doctor, watcher, or vigilante, and why?" Even though the roles aren't quite as clear-cut as that, there are still some things I can deduce from the information.

Please share this insight. I don't play LoL so I'm not familiar with the champions. So how would a non-LoL player know about the doctor/watcher/vig thing?

You know, just to stop the HP claim theory, I'm going to claim I have 4 HP.

What did you hope to gain by claiming how much health points you have?

Also...

That's incredibly stupid. As town, you've opened yourself up to the scum planning on taking you out. As scum, you've done an incredible flub by making it easier for the town to kill you. The only ways I can see this possibly being beneficial to you is:
A) It stops discussion(and you're scum).
B) It encourages everyone to claim their HP(and you're scum).
C) Nobody's scumhunting because of the claim theory and it stops discussion of said theory(maybe town?).
C clearly hasn't happened. Why'd you do it, Zombie?

So you all would shut up and scumhunt more. I really don't see how this information benefits either side. Secondly, how do you know I'm telling the truth? What if I actually have 7 HP? or 3?

. . .

Are you even trying to scumhunt, or to only answer questions and direct us to do the scumhunting for you? Also, you would be lying for no reason if the second and third question puts itself in view.

Or...you're getting attention for some reason.

[zombie urist]

Zombie:

Good job. Now do you see why

Listing the precise damage needed to kill everyone helps the scumteam target their damage abilities.
Listing the precise damage everyone already took helps the scumteam target their damage abilities.

are different?

I've already said that one requires a little guess work. Why are we still discussing this? I thought you wanted to stop talking about the HP thing.
Speaking of which, why would you claim your HP to stop the HP claim theory discussion, only to continue discussing it? Your reasons don't add up at all.

So its different. Why didn't you say so otherwise? This is unrelated to whether or not you should claim.

How are you so certain?  We're not even 48 hours into the game, and you're already 90% sure that you know who the scum are?  Please bequeath the unlimited and holy wisdom that allowed you to perform this miraculous deduction upon us.

Gut read. Made that number up. I'm still pretty sure that OB is scum, less so for Toaster.

So then why did you claim at all? In one post you're claiming that you're against the idea of claiming HP and in the next you're claiming. 
Let us see:
So you're saying that you could be fakeclaiming after saying that there wasn't a point to doing so.
Could you please explain your heel-face turn?  So that we would shut up and scumhunt more isn't a good enough reason for making a hypocrite of yourself.  If you really wanted us to scumhunt more, then why not do it yourself?

I'm not against the idea of claiming. I just don't think it would be helpful.

How are you so sure?

Gut read. See above.

Then why'd you give yours?

Impulse, felt like it.

PPE Tiruin.