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Trinimac

Malacath

Gork

Mork

Morgoth

Saruman

Bhall

Father Sky

[Nokao]

Cab this be put onto an existing save folder?

IMHO, hard and risky

[Nokao]

@smakemupagus, these are my first impressions about Orc Fortress. Remember that this are suggestions even if I will spoke directly and abuse of the "should" word

It's a really good and complete mod, but after some days of playing at it the overall-experience / feeling is to play with Dwarves.
I know that this is a lack of the original game you modded, and this is probably beyond the possibilities of anyone (and it's already MUCH that this game is moddable),
but maybe is possible to do some tricks to avoid that.

The very beginning starts from workshop, the productive / economic resource in the game.

I saw (verify?) that it is possible to remove default workshops, isn't it ? So this takes a great possibility, to change user experience from the beginning, changing and simplifying the structures.

I also liked so much the revolutionary idea of Meph to make Kobolds not dig, or dig less.
Well, Orcs should be an average of the 2 things, and have a "opposite of cave adaptation syndrome" that force them to live outside the more they can.

Going back to workshops, Orcs should (in common knowledge they do...) remember:

• simplicity of mind
• strenght
• adaptability

So my suggestions for incoming versions are:

• to overwrite default workshops with new ones, like you already did, that simplify them (all wood use alltoghether, all stone use alltoghether, etc)
• to make them tough (with incredible bonuses on biting and wrestling so also workers are hard to take down)
• to change / vary / influence attributes in that way, making them stronger but a less smart
• they should eat anything, also raw meat, and in this way farming and other things could be much simplifyed
• IMHO, magma and hard metals should be unknown and an utopy to them, maybe also removing them from world generation

Idea of using other races (as slaves or friends) to complete them (kobolds, human  & dwarf slaves, etc) is great.
Slaves shouldn't be affordable at embark anyway or at least they should cost much more.

I see this as an overall mod for war, like ... "let's play a easyer-to-manage game and let's rock with war".
Also (if it's possible to mod this) childs should grow much faster and be able to be in the army sooner.

 

add: oh and what about Scalps like native americans ? think about all invasors taking with them a special object, the scalp, that only the killer -or something similar- can take and collect. It could be very lightweight and be used to make necklaces (container) that contains scalps+name of all killed creatures, and could give bonuses to the necklace-bringer.

[smakemupagus]

Cab this be put onto an existing save folder?

I *think* most of it will work on an existing save, except for the new reaction for mineral oil.  Because the rest is changes to existing entries.

@Nokao

Thanks!  I always appreciate feedback, whether or not I agree with it.  I'll comment on a couple of your points

>> I saw (verify?) that it is possible to remove default workshops, isn't it?

Yes, you're not the first to suggest this, but I really don't see the point.  A barrel is a barrel, gutting a fish is gutting a fish.

>>  Kobolds not dig, or dig less.  Well, Orcs should be an average of the 2 things.
>>  IMHO, magma and hard metals should be unknown and an utopy to them, maybe also removing them from world generation

Again, you're not the first to suggest it, but it has nothing at all to do with my concept of orcs.  In both Middle Earth and Tamriel, for example, Orcs are actually very masterful miners and weapon crafters, when they are bothered to do so.  Once the Mod has options buttons I might make a "tribal orcs" challenge condition just since several people ask for it.  Until then, you are free to choose not build the advanced buildings (or do a soil layer aquifer embark), I think you would find they have some good low tech tricks too. 

>> to make them tough (with incredible bonuses on biting and wrestling so also workers are hard to take down)

Already are very much so (Uruks are incredibly powerful) and indeed, wrestling specifically is boosted.  See for example the chapter "Blood and Mithril" in the tutorial fort, in which the 2 peasant Uruks among a migration group survived ambush from a fully armed elven warband. 

>> to change / vary / influence attributes in that way, making them stronger but a less smart
>> they should eat anything, also raw meat,

Already are all of that

>> Idea of using other races (as slaves or friends) to complete them

In the sense that I think you mean it, it's not really possible.  Pet creatures are kind of lame, civ member castes interbreed as if all the same species and can't have their own graphic tiles (except in ascii)

>> Also (if it's possible to mod this) childs should grow much faster

It is possible and it already is much faster than vanilla, it would be very easy for you to change further if it suits you.

>> I see this as an overall mod for war, like ... "let's play a easyer-to-manage game and let's rock with war".

I see it as a "different but still hard and interesting to manage game and let's rock with war"   It is possible to play in a very simple way and be successful: They don't need booze, they'll eat raw meat, if you have several shaman they can all do spiritual counselling, you can get all you need for war from leather and bone at leather / bowyer / fletcher / tribal warcrafter.

[Meph]

>> I saw (verify?) that it is possible to remove default workshops, isn't it?

Yes, you're not the first to suggest this, but I really don't see the point.  A barrel is a barrel, gutting a fish is gutting a fish.

You cant remove vanilla buildings.

[Nokao]

I see you're a Forgotten Realms expert and that makes me happy, I was a master of D&D for 10 years and this game reminds me so much about Underdark.
I will definetly help someway in the future, actually I'm only playing and studying your work.

I see you got all my points, I just answer to this:

>> I saw (verify?) that it is possible to remove default workshops, isn't it?
Yes, you're not the first to suggest this, but I really don't see the point.  A barrel is a barrel, gutting a fish is gutting a fish.

The point is to give to the player a different experience, and simpler also (with less workshops) so the player thinks that Orcs do things "in a simpler way" becase they are specialized in war.

But Meph sniped me telling this is not possible (yet) so there is no point in discussing that

[smakemupagus]

>> add: oh and what about Scalps like native americans ? think about all invasors taking with them a special object, the scalp,
>> that only the killer -or something similar- can take and collect. It could be very lightweight and be used to make necklaces (container)
>> that contains scalps+name of all killed creatures, and could give bonuses to the necklace-bringer.

Oh, didn't see this add.  The answer is also "it's already in" but it takes more explanation than some of the others.  First of all, Totems.

* Exchange them as bounties at the Freelancer's Guild for cash, not a whole lot, but enough to buy some basic gear or equip a few raids before you get proper industries on line
* They are used for all sorts of things at the Warrior's Society Hall, not only for warriors masks (which is more or less == your suggestion, other than the keeping track of names which I think is impossible) but also for society codexes and weapon kits
* Ritual of Blood and Skulls, creates magic stuff at the sorcerer's temple

(fwiw if i had anything in mind as inspiration it was HoMM3/6, or just orcs generally, not particularly any real human culture)

[cloaknsmoke]

In whatever version of Orc fort I'm running, there is a bug in the molten pit raw. The "destroy helm in the melt" reaction has no reagent. It makes things out of nothing. I downloaded it maybe a month ago.

[smakemupagus]

Thanks, confirmed & fixed

[smakemupagus]

1.23 BETA
http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=6732

* bugfix: molten pit helm missing reagent
* removed knowledge stone drops from training-weapon practice sessions (quickfix for damage to wood items)
* all glassblower reacs now uses raw green glass rather than sand as reagent
   * cobalt glass, ebonglass and ashland (weapon) glass no longer requires pearlash

save game compatible with other 1.2.x , probably.

[Guthbug]

The orcs have a very unique feel. Very different from dwarves. I don't mind the vanilla workshops so much (I don't know that carving a stone chair is lore-breaking).

Probably my only complaint about orcs (and I feel I have to make one because complaints are more valuable than endless praise) is that they are relatively easy if you play them with their higher technology as a goal.

They are diverse enough that you can fit any roleplay game scenario you wish. Want to recreate Goblintown? Dig down to the cavern and do so. Want a surface encampment? Do so. Want a big dark stone tower like Sauron? Build it.

Most game difficulties are combat oriented, and the orcs handle this very easily. They really have no downsides which, once they get rolling, leads them to a high end fortress with ease. I have more orc fortresses die to lag death than anything else.

Pretty much universal in all of the fantasy settings is that orcs are prone to violence and hard to control, which prevents them from banding together in large numbers and overrunning the other races. Yet these orcs are relatively calm and even-tempered and work together much like dwarves.

[smakemupagus]

Thanks!  I agree with you -- my #1 and 2 priorities were Different than dwarves and Diverse enough to r/p all different kinds of orc camps, so I'm glad to hear that's working   I'm just beginning to pay more attention to balance now that it's more or less "complete." 

As far as violence specifically, I will probably turn down patience, but at least for now leave the psychiatrist effect on shamans.  I think that is a neat mechanic to counter violence (shaman need rooms and issue mandates, so it's not "free", and we can always turn up their demands).  fwiw if you do manage to get a tantrum, Uruks and sorcerers can kill snaga/orcs remarkably fast ^^  As a quick thing you can do in the current versions, you can try activating "misery" module in DFHack too as a challenge for 2x unhappier orcs.

For other things, I've been gradually tuning down e.g. the drop rate of the most powerful items in raids, although I try to replace it with an equal amount of something interesting or useful, so that it's still fun.  For example, something that might be coming is diluting the "ruins" raid loot so that there are less superior orichalcum swords/axes, and more either raw orichalcum, or even crates from other types of ruins with different stuff.

fwiw I still also get PMs about it being tough, in particular the early invasions.  I think for experienced players it always takes some house rules no matter whether dwarf or orc mode (like you can't use the Raid dock without an open waterway to the edge of the map, forcing you to sally and break the human/dwarf sieges.)  Magic is almost certainly overpowered now that autosyndrome makes it reliable, but I'd rather be sure it works first and then increase the costs or decrease the popratio of dreamwalkers, or whatever.

Anyway, long story short, thanks for the post specific suggestions to increase challenge certainly welcome

[Guthbug]

My pleasure. Orc fortress and kobold camp are my favorite mods to play. They're just radically different from the dwarves and they're primitive, so they appeal to me.

I do tend to limit myself to specific "scenarios" when playing orc fortress. I'll set a population cap to 5 and build a nanofortress with them. That's an enormous amount of fun, especially since when the invasions and sieges arrive you can pull up the drawbridge and snipe them from the walls.

Or I'll build a "fishing village" of simple orcs who never adopt any higher buildings or metallurgy.

The only thing I haven't managed to accomplish is orcs in an evil biome. It's a nightmare indeed when a big, well-armored uruk falls down dead in a mob of zombies and then gets reanimated himself. Then you have one seriously mean zombie to deal with and the snaga bowmen on the walls can't bring him down no matter how many arrows they plink into him.

The goblin and kobold slaves were one of the most clever ideas I've seen. They really round out an orc fortress.

Now that you can forcesiege in DFHACK, have you considered setting up some way for raids to trigger retaliation from the raid targets? That would offset the more or less 50/50 coin flip of whether or not the raid succeeds. Maybe you lose your ship, your weapons bundle, AND your target civ gets mad and sends 100 elf warriors flying in on giant eagles. Right now the raid is just, "oh dang, lost all my wood. Get to chopping, boys!" I'd really think twice about it early in the game if it might end up with humans and handcannons storming my walls.

[smakemupagus]

Now that you can forcesiege in DFHACK, have you considered setting up some way for raids to trigger retaliation from the raid targets? ...  I'd really think twice about it early in the game if it might end up with humans and handcannons storming my walls.

Yeah absolutely, although the enemy siege brings probably more good stuff than the raid would anyway, so if you are already ready for them you can even steamroll more but I still think it's a fun idea

[Guthbug]

Yeah, I think some of these sieges are just Christmas morning for the orcs. Especially if you play (as I often do) with the fortress defense races turned on.

"Don't worry about farming, boys. The frogmen ought to be showing up any day now. This time we let them get all the way inside before we close the gate. We need all the meat, leather, and cheap copper weapons we can get."

I think the invaders should spawn more heroes/champions with really good equipment to provide a decent challenge but I haven't figured out where in the raws I can modify that. For all I know it's hardcoded. They also have no real concept of strategy. The orcs are a warfaring race and DF still has some weak points in the military-warfare model. Even the best of enemies are easy to kill once you set them up in a hail of arrow fire. So a mod like orc fortress just sort of highlights the weaknesses in the overall game engine. Can't be helped at this stage.

For my own project I'm working on, I'm trying to figure out how to spawn an adventuring party ... 5-6 hero level enemies to attack you, with good equipment. I think the scripting engine might support it, but haven't managed to understand it yet. I'm still searching the web for examples.

[smakemupagus]

Not too much about the attackers is accessible through raw editing -- what weapons and materials they use, of course; a few tags that indirectly affect what animals they bring; and then you can assign them the [SIEGER] (dwarf, human, orc) or [AMBUSHER] (elf, drow, goblin, pandashi) behavior.  There's not an "X number of heroes" token or anything like that. 

At the creature level you can do a few miscellaneous things like TRAP_AVOID, LOCKPICKER, AMPHIBIOUS, FLIER, well, that is one of the cool things that Fortress Defense does is gives you different combinations of those.  You can turn up the pop ratio of dangerous enemy castes like Dwarven Legionnaires, or similar.

For your own project, you can make a creature with high natural skills and put them in an entity with access good materials and gear, but I don't know how you'll manage to spawn specifically 6 of them.