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Author Topic: [ORC] Discussion and Download Latest! (v1.42B)  (Read 142308 times)

smakemupagus

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Re: Orc Fortress: A new playable civ for ☼MASTERWORK☼
« Reply #120 on: August 21, 2012, 04:09:58 am »

@Wrex:  Well, that's the danger with long campaigns in enemy territory.  Same problem Napoleon had marching on Russia if i remember correctly.



@all:  As long as you continue to play Stable branch 0.1.8 these elves and other assorted pinkskins get to keep their stuff!  Move to dev branch 0.1.9 to seize the lands of the so-called free peoples in your iron fist and bring their loot back for the good of the clans! ... and/or report the bugs that prevent you from doing so.

Meph

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Re: Orc Fortress: A new playable civ for ☼MASTERWORK☼
« Reply #121 on: August 21, 2012, 11:31:24 am »

Singing arrows are... overpowered. Designed to be this, since you only get them through trading, with hefty pricetags and limited number. Similar to human cannonballs and drow bulletspikes. I would maybe trim down the number a bit by replacing them with normal mithril arrows. Also: Mithril = very light. Is that good for ammo?

But the raiding reactions look awesome :) And is that a war-galley in a swimming pool ?  :D

Quote
and the reforging process could apply a worthless decoration "encircled with bands of Slag Pit serial number".
This is not possible, because you cant create a new item directly with decoration. You can only decorate one of the reagents, with preserve_reagent. I guess you have figured that out by now, just wanted to say. The magic would be to add a refining step in between (toss weapons into slagpit, get "tool_metal_chunk_weapon" and then have a reaction that uses this to create a new weapon. Or allow only specific weapons to it (non-orcish) OR use a reaction_class on all metals and create the new orcish weapon from a metal-copy without the reaction_class tag. All very clutchy and workaround-like, but these are the first things that come to mind. Can probably find a better solution if you want me to look into the topic.

And since this is a somewhat half-official part of masterwork anyway, would you like to see a chapter in the new manual about orc-fortress ? If other embark races ever come, I would expand it for several races.

EDIT: Just posted this in the main-thread, but I think you will like the idea and could use it for shamans/orc syndrome ammo
Quote
Exploding Ammo
EDIT: Oh, completely forgot: I do have a second nice idea, that has never been done. EXPLODING AMMO. Syndrome bolts work, I can affect a creature with... lets say necrosis. Ok. But what if I give the creature a syndrome adding an interaction that allows one burst of undirected dust causing a syndrome? Arrow hits creature => creature releases undirected dust (cloud of about 20tile-radius) => dust affects all creatures nearby.

I can make explosions, releasing dragonfire-clouds, sleeping-powder bolts, transformation-into-sheeps (classic) or warpstone-bullets that have a chance of mutating/berserking enemies. Just imagine a goblin army, hit by ONE warpstone bullet, and 3 goblins mutate into abominations attacking their own army from within. HA, that will be fun, I really like that idea. Will result in more fun spells for mages as well.  Sadly, as far as I know, this cant be applied to siegeammo, but I can try.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2012, 11:39:23 am by Meph »
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smakemupagus

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Re: Orc Fortress: A new playable civ for ☼MASTERWORK☼
« Reply #122 on: August 21, 2012, 01:59:58 pm »

Woah, so much good info, where to start.  I'll reduce the singing arrows to a 'rare' find then and make the common loot something else (maybe, some kind of steel arrows).  ed.  To be honest, I have no idea if mithril is good for missile ammo.  It's certainly not great for jittes, but then, i just put that it in since that's a pretty common weapon in their war parties when they attack the Fort.  But anyway I will probably change that to silver.

Quote
But the raiding reactions look awesome :) And is that a war-galley in a swimming pool ?  :D
Um, yes.  Yes it is.  Orcs have unusual customs. ;)

Quote
This is not possible, because you cant create a new item directly with decoration.
Hmm, Too bad.  Among your proposed solutions the one I like best is the simple extra refining step, but then it starts to lose the advantage of using the recycler as opposed to regular melting.  Maybe I will just try requiring an extra reagent (flux?) because I think if the Orc steps away from the workshop he will then obey stockpile rules better. 

Quote
And since this is a somewhat half-official part of masterwork anyway, would you like to see a chapter in the new manual about orc-fortress ?
Sure!  What can I do to help put that together?

Quote
Exploding Ammo
Awesome!  I'd love to get a couple versions of that for the Shaman's rune-ammo casting weapons.  Maybe Cloud of Polymorph for the nature path shaman and Cloud of Necrosis for the wraith-knight path.  Or cloud of corpse explosion. 
« Last Edit: August 21, 2012, 02:52:57 pm by smakemupagus »
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Meph

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Re: Orc Fortress: A new playable civ for ☼MASTERWORK☼
« Reply #123 on: August 21, 2012, 02:11:41 pm »

Yeah, the syndrome ammo is a bit weak, and requires so much micromanagement by the player, I thought I should buff them a bit a lot.

Quote
Hmm, Too bad.  Among your proposed solutions the one I like best is the simple extra refining step, but then it starts to lose the advantage of using the recycler as opposed to regular melting.  Maybe I will just try requiring an extra reagent (flux?) because I think if the Orc steps away from the workshop he will then obey stockpile rules better. 
Arent they leaving the workshop already because of the fuel they need ? I had a quick look at the reactions, but cant see an elegant solution.

About the manual: I just add a little something and a link to the thread, and we will see what my mod has when it is released, and what the orc-plugin includes at that time. No sense in doing this now, with so many changes going on.
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smakemupagus

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Re: Orc Fortress: A new playable civ for ☼MASTERWORK☼
« Reply #124 on: August 21, 2012, 02:28:55 pm »

Yeah, as far as I can tell so far the problem is mostly at the Magma Slag Pit, where they don't have to step out for fuel.  A work around is to have them alternate work on a couple different item types in the queue, or just do one weapon at a time. 

celem

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Re: Orc Fortress: A new playable civ for ☼MASTERWORK☼
« Reply #125 on: August 22, 2012, 12:08:47 am »

Yup, I've been hitting the reforge issue too.  Guy continually makeshifting the same armor piece at a non-magma slag pit.  Personally I think its because I was swamped right then so no-one was picking up the haul job, or stockpiles were full...its raining goblindwarfite, so it was always the closest piece.  Its the same 'issue' that we abuse when we want to encrust 1 of every gem onto a specific statue in vanilla:p
I worked my way around the issue by specifying the makeshift pieces in uniforms so that they were collected with reasonable speed, then pop by to queue a helm/mail job from the adjacent mithril pile.  Note that following 'reforge armor to mail' immediately with 'reforge armor to breastplate' causes the new chain to be the target.

Gave up on the makeshifting when my military orcs started complaining about bare feet and legs.  This pushed me into the forge anyway so I went mainstream metalworking.

However I did manage to get to 15 melee orcs in makeshift mithril with steel boots and greaves.
Since I was in the forge anyway I made mithril spears and axes to complement the dai/katanas.
Mainly I use the slag pit as a metal reconverter rather than main smelter.  steel, wolfram, cobalt and mithril that are not being makeshifted get smelted old-style, anything else goes in the pit to become iron.  Its a nice way of being rid of all the gold and bronze alloy crap.

Tribal leather I kinda skipped.  By the time I had oil set up right i had been visited by nasty elves and everyone was prancing about like fairies in mithril gear.  However I want the lamellar cloak to be my new runerobe.  That work layer-wise?  I'll have to see.

Been experimenting with the raiding a lot.  Firstly, godamn how frikkin' awesome, Tropico 2 was the first thing that popped into my head and I loved the feature there too.  Its kinda cool from what i've got up to so far.  After a miserable experience in my first orc fort where the raiders weapon crate was made of all 5 of my daikatanas I debated some stockpile fu and decided instead to tweak your reaction so only copper weapons are eligible.  To be honest rusted iron would make more sense if picking 1 metal like this but copper works for me, building raider packs from the factory's maul reaction.  Raiding isnt fast....it takes a lot to be able to raid as often as you'd like.  5000 coins is 10 totems/kills or 5 barrels of blood, then the epic amounts of wood to make the boat...well its given me a reason to use seige engineers.

So far I had some unsuccessful runs, got some precious metals from a drow raid and then finally hit up an ancient ruin and scored the foundry blueprints, was actually here to find out what the heck orchalcum is when I thought I'd leave you this note since im playing the dev line.

Incidentally:  I have a bunch of wolfram bars thanks to smelting down loot, but I cant grind these to powder at the damascus?  I have loads of bags and the bars are sitting right by the workshop.  Theres none on my map naturally :(
« Last Edit: August 22, 2012, 12:14:13 am by celem »
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Sarkovar

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Re: Orc Fortress: A new playable civ for ☼MASTERWORK☼
« Reply #126 on: August 22, 2012, 12:47:11 am »

So far so great, I lost my first fort to an "unfortunate accident"(who knew orcs need to eat lol) my second fort which is my current endeavor started out in a really bad-ass way though, my wagon was pulled by GIANT SPIDERS. Not only did these bad-ass arachnids pull my gaggle of angry green brutes to their destination they became the perfect watch-dogs(watch-spiders?) I saw a kobold get shaken so hard it was literally ripped in half. If I wasn't so manly I would say I love you so you get a consolation Internet high five instead. ('.')/\('.') Great job.
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smakemupagus

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Re: Orc Fortress: A new playable civ for ☼MASTERWORK☼
« Reply #127 on: August 22, 2012, 03:49:38 am »

Hey guys, thanks for the 'internet high five,' lol  :)

* Yep, Cloak is LAYER:COVER, same as a runerobe
* Here's the notes on the Ancient Foundry metals

"ANCIENT_FOUNDRY, a workshop that makes powerful alloys, the secrets of which had until recently been lost.  These materials may be not quite as fine as the best of modern dwarven metallurgy, but are still the envy of other races.  DEEPBRONZE is a material heavy like wolfram, but which also holds a fine edge and shear modulus (cutting protection) as good as the finest worked mithril.  ORICHALCUM is a generally good material like steel, but additionally holds an incredibly sharp edge and impact modulus (impact protection)."

You can make regular stuff out of those metals at your normal forge -- they should be a notch better than steel but not quite as good as patternwelded mithril -- but the biggest advantage is the 'ancient weapon replica' gear you make from it at the Foundry.  Also, Orichalcum is needed for special weapons at the Circle or Altar. 

* If you're having trouble collecting coins to pay the Raiders remember you can always just mint 'em (in the latest patch even mint silver / gold coins and have the Freelancers Guild make change)

-----

I don't immediately see anything wrong with the code for grinding wolfram reaction.  Is it possible you don't have 6 bars?  Otherwise i'll try to look into it soon. Thanks for all the feedback on gameplay balance of Raids and Slag pit etc. too.

Wrex

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Re: Orc Fortress: A new playable civ for ☼MASTERWORK☼
« Reply #128 on: August 22, 2012, 03:55:02 am »

You know, elves could do with a nerf. They eother completely curb stomp you, or inundate you with mithril. Perhaps limit the early sieges in some manner, building up to mythril assaults?
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smakemupagus

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Re: Orc Fortress: A new playable civ for ☼MASTERWORK☼
« Reply #129 on: August 22, 2012, 04:44:24 am »

Yeah, I agree, although we don't have a ton of control over how they attack though, basically we can only tell them they have to wait longer (in terms of wealth / population / etc.) to attack.  And there are tags for behaviors siege, ambush, skulking.  After that it's basically all up to Toady's algorithms. 

I don't want to make changes to the Elven entity without coordinating with Meph, so the 'official' fix might wait until we have a toggle button in Masterwork that can tweak settings like this when you switch between Dwarf and Orc mode.

But there are a few easy things you can do to your local copy:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

@celem:  i like your idea for dedicated reactions for copper/rusty weapon kits (although the main one should work OK with 'stockpile-fu', it's nice to give convenient options) Actually your mod is almost the same as my original recipe for the longboat!  But I thought maybe it was too complicated.  Interesting that you prefer it, now I think twice about it.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2012, 11:29:54 am by smakemupagus »
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celem

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Re: Orc Fortress: A new playable civ for ☼MASTERWORK☼
« Reply #130 on: August 22, 2012, 06:39:38 am »

Yes I actually already made this tweak to my copy.  I was left to decide between cowering behind traps until the first elf visit, or having everyone die.  iron and steel just wont do the job vs elves, even with the orc's superior size, you have to mob a single elf and then its 10 pages of helmet bash spam till the guy with my iridium scimitar arrives and fixes things, if its them mobbing you then orcs just disintegrate as they certainly dont have the armor to stop mithril by then..

The issue is that even if you cower behind traps....well the moment the first elves are through you are bathing in mithril,  and while you smelt a bunch to grind for katanas you are always gonna be sitting with spare and the temptation to make mithril armor.

This leaves you in yr 2 with a military of doom, which is nice in its way when the nastier foes come, but the whole beak wolf/strangler years I yawned my way through.  I retrofit the elves to allow them both steel and iron.  This seems to result in less of their gear being mithril, which is nice as one of the combos i was trying to avoid was mithril kriss/mithril round shield.  This is just a very powerful combo gained way too early and makes my 'individual melee choice' orcs all retrain sword.  It also leaves 'gaps' in their armor that you can exploit, most weapons will still ping off the mithril but im happier meeting these elves with an ironclad orc force when some of the elves have iron or steel helms.

I also added a second raider weapon crate reaction, so that in addition to your original one tweaked to only take copper I have one cloned to only take rusty iron, its a nice way to dump the worst metals.  Furthermore building a longboat requires 2 pulleys and 5 cloth and I halved the wood to 5.  This last one was a personal balance since I want to embark on a fairly treeless spot and the lack of proper tree farming will make boats trickier.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2012, 06:46:26 am by celem »
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smakemupagus

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Re: Orc Fortress: A new playable civ for ☼MASTERWORK☼
« Reply #131 on: August 22, 2012, 11:16:59 am »

Frequently* Asked Questions
*Well, more than once anyway

part I.  A quick primer on Orcish magics.

Orcish magic ranges from simple rituals that any Orc can do at the totem pole, to enchanted weapons, to actual magic spells learned only by Dreamwalkers.  Magic effects can be instant e.g. target gains pain resistance; they can be learned abilities e.g. target learns to cast 'Frenzy'; or they can be bound to items e.g. creation of spell runes that you carry in a quiver and cast in battle.

Q:  I see a poof of dust but nothing happened?
A:  A lot of magic effects rely on vaporizing stone that causes a mystical 'syndrome', which is not foolproof, it should work about half the time.  If it doesn't work multiple times, then, well, it might be a bug.

Q:  What sort of materials do I need?
A:  There are a couple different kind of mats.
* cheap consumable reagent (like a Minotaur doll) - these are used up no matter what
* preserved "catalyst" (like a Chaos mojo or Healing talisman) - these are reused over and again, but are either expensive to make or come as rare loot from Raids
* crafting materials - required to craft a weapon, mojo, talisman, reagent, etc.; should be no randomness in these reactions
* target - sometimes you need to arrange for the right spell target to be in range of the workshop:  "Dreamwalk to learn a fairyfire spell" requires a dreamwalker, "Use chaos mojo on wolverines" requires wolverines, etc.

Q:  How do I get Dreamwalker's Talismans?
A:  Every 10 times you "Commune with the spirits" at Stone Circle or Altar of Storms you get 1 talisman.

Q:  Um, then what?
A:  Get a spell catalyst talisman, most of them come as loot from Raids, or you can craft currently just one for 'Disable', and have a Dreamwalker execute the learning reaction.  If the effect 'sticks' he'll learn the spell permanently, and should cast it about once per day (exact time varies).

Q:  What if i don't have Dreamwalkers?
A:  You can always try 'Use chaos mojo on self' and see if you're transformed into a Dreamwalker.  These statements have not been evaluated by the Council for Responsible Shamanistic Practices.

Q:  How to use the magic weapons (Druids' Ivywhip, or Sorcerers' Wraithblade).
A:  Equip it as normally, and it'll be used as a melee weapon.  Then also craft some Ivy Runebolts or Bladeshards respectively matching your weapon, and equip like ammo.  The weapon can be used by any orc, but the rune ammo use is governed by MAGIC_NATURE skill which Dreamwalkers have affinity for.  'Grappling Ivy' is a pretty safe spell, where as you might not want to fire 'Fading Bladeshards' into a mass melee with your own people.

Q:  Orcs?  Magic?  What?  SMASH!!!
A:  Try the war drums/horns/pipe at least, it's simple and powerful, the Orc that becomes musician applies the effect to comrades for 1 mo.  The effects don't stack though, as anyone who's heard bagpipes and horns at the same time understands.  But sure, leave all the other stuff to the elves and just SMASH :)

Q:  OK enough already, what do the spells do actually?
A:  Music
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

A:  Runes
*   Binding ivy roots
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
*   Poison ivy sickness
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
*    Wraith fading sickness
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
*   Agony
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

A:  Dreamwalker Spells - Stone Circle
* Healing
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
* Fairyfire
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
* Disabling Hex
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

A:  Dreamwalker Spells - Altar of Storms
* Death
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
* Decay
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
* Frenzy
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

A: * Temporarily Become Grenadier
Sorry, Orcish grenadiers are on holiday, they will be coming back soon as using a Weapon rather than Magic type system.


Q:  How about syndrome arrows from the fletcher?
A:  They are stable at room temperature; they evaporate at body temp, releasing a syndrome with various extra disabling or pain effects.  Like the runic spell ammos, they may be dangerous in very hot biomes.

Q:  Why isn't my pack of Ocelots, Smilodons, and Paraguan War Bobcats affected by the big cat growth mojos?
A:  It only affects the following cats
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
... which happen to all have Giant forms in vanilla.  Likewise the Boar growth only affects wild boar and regular domestic pigs.

Q:  OK, growing your pet tigers into Giant tigers is pretty cool, but what's the benefit of using Chaos magic on badgers?
A:  What's the benefit of *not* using Chaos magic on badgers?
« Last Edit: August 31, 2012, 08:55:26 pm by smakemupagus »
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Meph

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Re: Orc Fortress: A new playable civ for ☼MASTERWORK☼
« Reply #132 on: August 22, 2012, 12:18:29 pm »

Elves have those as well, they should have ironwood and steeloak armor and weapons... they dont ?
[PRODUCT:100:10:BAR:NO_SUBTYPE:INORGANIC:IRONWOOD][PRODUCT_DIMENSION:150]
[PRODUCT:100:10:BAR:NO_SUBTYPE:INORGANIC:STEELOAK][PRODUCT_DIMENSION:150]

All mithril elves are not intented. You can raise the siege trigger for those, make humans first, then dwarves, and last elves. I also dont think that dwarves would ever bring golems in sieges.

And damn, you are getting a lot better with the modding, I really like that FAQ about magic, spells and I will totally steal the "grenadier" idea for the warpstone weapons dropped by Skaven in my mod. And maybe... make dwarven grenades and dwarven flamethrowers. You know, for FUN. With a lot of !! :)
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smakemupagus

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Re: Orc Fortress: A new playable civ for ☼MASTERWORK☼
« Reply #133 on: August 22, 2012, 12:41:49 pm »

My best guess is they ignore the option to bring INORGANIC:IRONWOOD and INORGANIC:STEELOAK because they're [wood]?  OK, will incorporate some of those entity changes for elves in future versions.

Dwarves definitely send golem squads which is a good feature even if it's an accident (they counter overly archer defences).  Brass golems actually forced me to savescum my last test fort because they stood on a cliff in vision range and my archers went through 100s of arrows and couldn't force them off ::)  Drow tend to bring building destroyers like VCC's. 

Thanks for the nice comments, this modding community here is super helpful, so it's been a lot of fun so far.  I'm afraid my grenadier might become obsolete once you invent exploding ammo though :)

Meph

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Re: Orc Fortress: A new playable civ for ☼MASTERWORK☼
« Reply #134 on: August 22, 2012, 01:32:37 pm »

Ui, Golem Squads, that is awesome. I assume they are only low grade golems, the PET version you can trade for, not mitril and adamantine ones ;)

Yes, they are wood bars. Thought elves would use this for armor... maybe not. Maybe I should give them the wood logs instead.

Oh, and what do you mean with "once I invent it?"

// the explosion mat
[INORGANIC:DRAGONFIRE]
[STATE_NAME_ADJ:ALL_SOLID:dragonfire][TILE:176]
   [STATE_NAME_ADJ:LIQUID:dragonfire]
   [STATE_NAME_ADJ:GAS:dragonfire]
   [STATE_COLOR:ALL_SOLID:YELLOW]
   [STATE_COLOR:LIQUID:YELLOW]
   [STATE_COLOR:GAS:YELLOW]
[ITEM_SYMBOL:'*']
[DISPLAY_COLOR:7:1:1]
[SOLID_DENSITY:50000]
[SPEC_HEAT:60000]
   [MELTING_POINT:80000]
   [BOILING_POINT:85000]
[MAT_FIXED_TEMP:90000]


// add this to the inorganic mat you want to make the ammo with
   [SPEC_HEAT:450]
      [MELTING_POINT:10067]
      [BOILING_POINT:10068]
   [SYNDROME]
      [SYN_NAME:wtfBOOM]
      [SYN_AFFECTED_CLASS:GENERAL_POISON]
// no syn_affect_class means it will affect any creature (?)
           [SYN_INHALED][SYN_CONTACT]
   [CE_CAN_DO_INTERACTION:PROB:100:START:0:END:3]
    [CDI:INTERACTION:MATERIAL_EMISSION]
// no usage hint means it will always trigger (?)
      [CDI:ADV_NAME:dragonfire]
            [CDI:USAGE_HINT:CLEAN_SELF]
            [CDI:USAGE_HINT:CLEAN_FRIEND]
            [CDI:USAGE_HINT:ATTACK]
            [CDI:USAGE_HINT:FLEEING]
            [CDI:USAGE_HINT:GREETING]
      [CDI:BP_REQUIRED:BY_CATEGORY:BODY]
      [CDI:MATERIAL:INORGANIC:DRAGONFIRE:UNDIRECTED_DUST]
         [CDI:TARGET:A:SELF_ALLOWED]
         [CDI:TARGET_RANGE:A:10]
         [CDI:MAX_TARGET_NUMBER:A:3]
         [CDI:VERB:explode:explodes:NA]
         [CDI:WAIT_PERIOD:2]
         [CDI:FREE_ACTION]

//notes: You can add any interaction you want. Crazed, Transformations, shrinking, adding material emission with 10 solid-globs to simulate shrapnel, can all be done. Same goes for the material. The current one has a high temp and will melt people. You can also make it freezing, or add syndromes through it. :)

Have fun with it, the example works, tested in arena. It is... a bit too strong though, so have fun inventing new stuff with it :)

Carefull, large picture:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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