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Author Topic: Gunman Opens Fire at Midnight Batman Release - 14 Dead, more Critically-Wounded  (Read 52349 times)

MetalSlimeHunt

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That's not the point. He's fearmongering against the Internet. Shit like that is what leads to moral panics, and moral panics lead to calls for unwise legislation.

I do not seek to have unwise legislation imposed upon this great Internet of ours. The last thing the free world needs right now is to get freaked out and put a chokehold on something as great as the internet because they became irrationally scared.

The shooter could have bought everything he did without touching a computer. That he ordered equipment online didn't do anything to improve or hinder his chances of going undetected until it was too late. This is the same kind of silly logic that was employed by the "cyberbullying" panic a few years back. The internet does not cause shooting rampages any more than it causes bullying, the internet is a medium of communication and trade like any other. The actual source of the problem lies elsewhere.

I also have other reasons for disliking Gizmodo. A lot of their writers are of very questionable opinion.
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Sirus

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Fearmongering against the Internet...on the Internet.

I know the "Internet" isn't exactly some sort of monolithic entity, but the logic in that sort of thing never made sense to me.
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Leafsnail

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I really don't see it like that.  He does state how it's more problematic - while someone in a gunshop would raise an eyebrow if you asked to buy 10,000 rounds of ammunition or a large number of guns, the internet as it is allows you to buy pretty much any gun or any amount of ammunition, no questions asked (other than maybe "are you insane/ a fugitive" sometimes).  Taking that one quote alone might suggest he wants to CENSOR THE INTERNET OMG but the whole article seems to suggest he instead wants more regulation specifically on online arms dealers.  There's certainly no reason why you'd need wider censorship or spying or anything to add some checks to online gun buying.
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Detonate

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It's not fearmongering against the Internet. It's against the illegal online store like the Armory and even worse, the legal sites that sell shit like armor and insane guns and shitloads of ammo.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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The shooter didn't buy anything from the Armory. His purchases were all legal and not even all that abnormal for a gun collector.
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
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kaijyuu

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I don't see why an online store would need more regulation than a brick and mortar one, except for stuff like identity theft.


If there's reason to "raise eyebrows" there's reason to regulate, and that would ideally apply to both online and brick and mortar.
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For, in order that men should resist injustice, something more is necessary than that they should think injustice unpleasant. They must think injustice absurd; above all, they must think it startling. They must retain the violence of a virgin astonishment. When the pessimist looks at any infamy, it is to him, after all, only a repetition of the infamy of existence. But the optimist sees injustice as something discordant and unexpected, and it stings him into action.

Detonate

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The shooter didn't buy anything from the Armory. His purchases were all legal and not even all that abnormal for a gun collector.

It's not relevant to James Holmes, it's about illegal websites and the fact that everything he bought was somehow legal.
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Looks like that poison wasn`t good for their eyes at all.
I never thought I'd say this, but Nietzsche is just adorable.

MetalSlimeHunt

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No it isn't! The article that prompted all this is explicitly about Holmes! The Armory article is irreverent!

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Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
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No Gods, No Masters.

Detonate

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No it isn't! The article that prompted all this is explicitly about Holmes! The Armory article is irreverent!

Okay, I was a bit confused, because Lord Inquisitor linked to the category, not the article itself. The point still stands, though. James Holmes was used because the Aurora shooting was the most recent tragedy. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/23/james-holmes-weapons-internet_n_1694451.html
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Looks like that poison wasn`t good for their eyes at all.
I never thought I'd say this, but Nietzsche is just adorable.

Cthulhu

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The problem's what's been mentioned already.  This guy was able to legally purchase an arsenal with no possible use except killing large numbers of people, and no one had any idea something was amiss until he started killing large numbers of people.  The internet's really bad about stuff like that.  For a laugh, go on amazon, search for powdered mimosa, and look at the frequently bought together bundle offer.  Lye, naphtha, and pH strips.  Amazon doesn't give a shit.

The dilemma is how to fix this when the US is saturated with guns.  The gun nuts are right, people are still going to have a shitload of guns because they've been allowed to have a shitload of guns forever.  It's kind of bullshit, Europe has all this cool stuff like gun control that curtails violence and awesome prisons that curtail recidivism but our system's been shitty so long it wouldn't work here because we have so many guns and such a strongly recidivist prison population.
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Leafsnail

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I don't see why an online store would need more regulation than a brick and mortar one, except for stuff like identity theft.


If there's reason to "raise eyebrows" there's reason to regulate, and that would ideally apply to both online and brick and mortar.
Because it's all automatic in an online store.  If I tried to buy that obviously hallucinogenic set of items in a normal store I would be questioned (or at least there'd be a strong risk I'd be questioned), wheras Amazon's mindless purchase bot doesn't notice anything.  There clearly needs to be more regulation in real stores too where currently it comes down to shop owner discretion, but the problem is massively exacerbated on the internet.
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kaenneth

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Like all the corner convenience stores that sell "Bath Salts"
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MetalSlimeHunt

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The dilemma is how to fix this when the US is saturated with guns.  The gun nuts are right, people are still going to have a shitload of guns because they've been allowed to have a shitload of guns forever.  It's kind of bullshit, Europe has all this cool stuff like gun control that curtails violence and awesome prisons that curtail recidivism but our system's been shitty so long it wouldn't work here because we have so many guns and such a strongly recidivist prison population.
I don't think US gun culture and prison recidivism are related. The recidivism rates in the US are as high as they are due to a combination of prisons lacking rehabilitative programs and the extreme social stigma placed upon everyone who has ever been imprisoned, precluding them from any way of making money other than more crime once released. These factors are not helped by prison privatization, which puts the prison system in the hands of a structure who's primary concern is not lowering recidivism but making profit. Furthermore, the War on Drugs has allowed organize crime to flourish in the US, and the social structures provided by these organizations are all some prisoners have ever known and will ever have in prison or out of it. It's a virtually inescapable trap. If you wish to curtail recidivism, don't bother with gun control because that won't make any noticeable dent. All that will do is somewhat change the tools of the trade without stopping the actual trade, and lead to way more arrests as US gun culture goes down fighting. We do not need more arrests. The prisons are already critically overcrowded all the time.

To reduce recidivism rates in the United States of America:
-Nationalize the prisons, because sweet fucking god we are going to get nowhere fast until that happens.
-Legalize all soft recreational drugs and regulate them for commercial sale, decriminalize all hard recreational drugs and put users in rehab instead of behind bars. Watch as organized crime in the US and the world over collapses in a power vacuum as corporations provide cheaper and safer product to soft users and rehabilitation takes away hard users, destroying criminal profit.
-Legalize and regulate prostitution, Nevada or Germany style (doesn't matter, really), to further reduce criminal profit to end another avenue of victimless crime generating new prisoners.
-End Three Strikes Laws in states that have them and re-sentence all prisoners under the third strike to a proper term, releasing them if exceeded. Who the hell thought Three Strikes was a good idea in the first place?
-Provide maximum security prisoners with known gang affiliation identity protection and with sustained good behavior the chance to be transferred to medium security if they renounce gang affiliation and provide information to prison officials. This wouldn't work too well on its own, but with organized crime hurting as it is due to drug legalization by now the gangs will be at their weakest and vulnerable to conversion.
-Cease the practice of the Death Penalty. The death penalty's moratorium never should have ended in the first place so this is just more of a general reform to bring US justice up to speed, but states with the death penalty have higher murder rates than those without, so it might help.
-Cease the practice of Solitary Confinement. Even putting aside ethical issues, solitary confinement is the opposite of reform inducing. People need to be around other humans, even if it is trivial or unpleasant. Putting prisoners in solitary confinement for weeks just makes them vengeful and mentally ill, not a good idea.

There is more than could be done than that, but this addresses the main problems.
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
Quote
No Gods, No Masters.

Neonivek

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This guy was able to legally purchase an arsenal with no possible use except killing large numbers of people

Weapon collections. Believe it or not there are people who buy large arsenals of weapons just to look at and use occasionally in shooting gallery.

In Toronto they were thinking about banning weapon collections because a common way to sell weapons in the black market was to have a weapon collection that got "Stollen"

Quote
End Three Strikes Laws in states that have them and re-sentence all prisoners under the third strike to a proper term, releasing them if exceeded. Who the hell thought Three Strikes was a good idea in the first place?

It falls under the theory that "If you make it illegal people won't do it" that people branch to all crimes in all situations.

As for the justice system... your list is entirely unrealistic because of ONE major thing. "Punishment". A lot of people fully believe that jail is supposed to be a terrible terrible punishment. The idea of making jail better for inmates or even helping them while they are inside it is ENTIRELY contradictory to why they are there.

Heck a lot of people believe that violence and rape in jails is perfectly acceptible and is part of the jail experience.

Now my personal view is that rehabilitation should be the prime concern for people in jail and that "Punishment" is simply outdated.

Unfortunately I am a distinct minority. Where I am they actually removed a program that saved money and overwhelmingly removed the chance to commit another crime... likely because "So they go to jail and learn job skills? What BS is that?".
« Last Edit: July 26, 2012, 07:10:30 pm by Neonivek »
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Cthulhu

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I wasn't saying they were related, I was just saying they're similar.  They're both serious problems that run deep enough that a lot of the admittedly superior systems in other countries couldn't just be dropped in.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2012, 07:10:06 pm by Cthulhu »
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