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Author Topic: Gunman Opens Fire at Midnight Batman Release - 14 Dead, more Critically-Wounded  (Read 52380 times)

palsch

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Yeah I don't think an adult's life is worth any less than a kid's. It's like using "women and children" as an intensifier. If you use "even this person was a victim," it has the unfortunate implication of everyone else not mattering as much as the one(s) you pointed out.
Just to be explicit, that was a trigger warning in the traditional sense. I know a lot of people, mostly parents, who have extreme and visceral reactions to violence against children. Even though I don't personally, I do find seeing her picture very strongly affecting. I wanted to offer people the choice whether or not to view the image and give the most likely reason they wouldn't.

It should in no way be taken to mean the other people don't matter.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2012, 05:26:20 pm by palsch »
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Neonivek

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Yeah I don't think an adult's life is worth any less than a kid's. It's like using "women and children" as an intensifier. If you use "even this person was a victim," it has the unfortunate implication of everyone else not mattering as much as the one(s) you pointed out.

A lot of it has to do more with that it is considered more evil to kill a child because a child is ultimately pure and innocent (It would be similar to killing a saint)

As well a lot of parents, from being parents, gain a very powerful psychological conditioning to seeing children hurt/killed.

So it is more of an psychological disposition then anything else.

"Women and Children First" to me sort of represents an outdated chivalry unless it is based on logistics.
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kaijyuu

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It should in no way be taken to mean the other people don't matter.
It's not that they don't matter (of course they do), but the implication that they matter less.

But enough of that derail.




Seeing their faces did give me a sinking feeling in my stomach. Much as I'd like to be, I'm not above failing to properly empathize with statistics. 12 dead, and I know it's bad... 12 dead faces in front of me, I feel it. :|
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Quote from: Chesterton
For, in order that men should resist injustice, something more is necessary than that they should think injustice unpleasant. They must think injustice absurd; above all, they must think it startling. They must retain the violence of a virgin astonishment. When the pessimist looks at any infamy, it is to him, after all, only a repetition of the infamy of existence. But the optimist sees injustice as something discordant and unexpected, and it stings him into action.

Neonivek

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I intentionally try to remain cold to statistics rather then the other way around.

To me an issue with tragity is that there isn't a cool headed person around telling you to act rationally.
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Starver

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Maybe we can talk about the victims instead.

[...]

I'm putting their image of the victims behind a spoiler...

Rightly or wrongly, although I'm really not in a mood to read up on the victims right now[1] I did open the image[2], it being a so much more fluid thing to do.  And my first thoughts were[3] that I hope the Staff Sergeant represented there died while actively trying to confront the perpetrator, and not just in his seat or from random fire while escaping.

There's almost certainly something wrong about those first thoughts...  I'm looking to make it a dramatically-valid story, I know.  Not every military-type is going to be able to go all Die Hard on the next unexpected encounter outside of a premeditated military deployment area.  Not everyone (military or not) who can live up to the Hollywood heroic ideal is lucky enough to make it count.  It obviously never resulted in any "John McClane: one; Herr Gruber: nil" situation...  I'm sort of aiming at a "he shielded someone else's escape", by either physical presence or some presence of mind to create a suitable distraction.

Is it Hollywood?  Or is it just a general narrative sense, that grabbed me by the goolies, there?  One that Hollywood taps into, of course.[4]

Probably those are (or should be!) rhetorical questions, I just asked.  And what came before it being a 'rhetorical statement' that shouldn't be considered either.  But the initial flash of the initial speculation and the almost instantaneously-resulting self-analysis just seemed so vivid that I thought I'd air it.  Ponder it and ignore it, if you will...

Here's something else perhaps less controversial, although again you should probably ignore it as a discussion point: As someone without any particular belief in the whole concept of an afterlife, I just find death so upsetting.  The end of a personality.  The extinction of a character.  There are no doubt some (such as the one who set about this act?) have stopped being a positive influence to society, but it's really upsetting to even ponder the question of the ending of anyone's life.  (I'm welling up, somewhat, just while trying to work out how to word what I'm just saying, and hence doubtless making it complete hash of it.)  I don't exclude from my distaste of the process those deaths that come from old age (although I know that physical immortality isn't an option), and there's also accidents and unforeseen consequences... but what (loosely and randomly, in this case, but especially where someone is made a particular target, not just a wrong-place/wrong-time victim) is an individual's premeditated effort to wipe out another's life... no, that's beyond comprehension, save for perhaps direct self-preservation reasons (kill or be...).  But that's a cold-blooded act, we see in the thread-title.  And, darnit, I can see another controversial subject coming to play if we extend this thought further[5].


Look, I'm just... trying to articulate some thoughts, and I've a feeling they're coming out wrong, or provocative rather than being evocative, or something.  So I'm bolding this to hopefully draw your attention to the fact that I'm expressing inner turmoil, rather than have you read half-way down and reply in hot-blood while you still think I'm attempting to make a coherent claim that needs to be challenged.  (Though, as long as you realise how incoherent this post is, I'm not saying don't challenge me at all.)


And, yes, I'm probably going to regret typing all of that.


[1] Although I dare say I really need to do so, to honour their memory suitably, it does seem to me to be rather grizzly to go cyber-stalking the dead.

[2] With all due note of the caveat given, even though in some ways this might be considered an even grizzlier type of cyber-stalking, acquiring knowledge of the victims only insofar as them being mere pixels...

[3] And without knowing if they're backed up by the read-through I have so far avoided...

[4] Also, later posts are right about the "even women and children" bias, and by rights I should be equally 'happy' for one of the women/children to have taken on a similar self-sacrificing roll to save an adult male, perhaps also in the military.  IYSWIM.

[5] No, not religion.  Hopefully we've skipped that.  The whole "capital punishment" issue, with the possible (officially-sanctioned) cold-blooded retaliation, in kind.  Can we skip this too?  Or is it too late?
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Willfor

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The only point of contention I would have is that you used the phrasing of "As someone ____", which is an unfortunately offensive statement to be making toward any group of people. You are making a declaration with it that anyone who is not in X position cannot possibly understand Y feelings.

The one you are making with this particular one is one that I find to be unilaterally exclusionary, as if no one outside the position you've outlined could share those same feelings. However, I do realize that you're not looking for any sort of debate on this topic, and you are simply trying to get everything out there. I, personally, don't want to be the one to challenge your thinking on any more than a "please stop thinking that I cannot share your feelings in this matter simply as a matter of course of what I believe."

The fact that I do believe in an afterlife has absolutely no bearing on how tragic and final this event feels to me, and I would like for you to stop thinking that it does. Life should not be a thing to be casually thrown away, no matter what belief system a person has.

... This probably exactly what you didn't want, but this point is pretty dear to me.

Why do I keep coming back to this thinking I'm going to be the second person in a row regretting typing something? Probably because it's likely.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2012, 07:09:20 pm by Willfor »
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In the wells of livestock vans with shells and garden sands /
Iron mixed with oxygen as per the laws of chemistry and chance /
A shape was roughly human, it was only roughly human /
Apparition eyes / Apparition eyes / Knock, apparition, knock / Eyes, apparition eyes /

Starver

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Sorry, when starting that paragraph, a whole internal dialogue got rushed through that seemed to necessitate me getting into that area of the subject, in the first place.  The post got quickly more heart-to-screen without so much complex interleaving of the meta-reviews (albeit still unstructured) of the internal dialogue.  Anyway, I probably inadvertently touched on bones of contention that (so far) had not been covered, and that I was actually trying not to get into.

But the actual meaning can perhaps be better read as "I'm personally <foo>, and my reason for <bar> is <baz>"...  Such that anyone who is <not_foo> can still have a reason for <bar> that is a <not_foo>-relevant <baz>.  It doesn't even force all <foo>ers to consider the <baz> reasoning.  Indeed, even whether they actively <bar> or not...  And other combinations.


No, clarity obviously still escapes me.  But I believe I understand where you're coming from (so don't worry about that too much), and perhaps I've conveyed just enough to put you back at ease on this point.
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Cthulhu

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For me, the most existentially horrifying one is destruction of the brain, in some kind of freak accident no one could predict or stop.  Everything you are and ever were flying out of your head without any warning, everything you've ever thought about being gone forever.
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Shoes...

Willfor

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Sorry, when starting that paragraph, a whole internal dialogue got rushed through that seemed to necessitate me getting into that area of the subject, in the first place.  The post got quickly more heart-to-screen without so much complex interleaving of the meta-reviews (albeit still unstructured) of the internal dialogue.  Anyway, I probably inadvertently touched on bones of contention that (so far) had not been covered, and that I was actually trying not to get into.

But the actual meaning can perhaps be better read as "I'm personally <foo>, and my reason for <bar> is <baz>"...  Such that anyone who is <not_foo> can still have a reason for <bar> that is a <not_foo>-relevant <baz>.  It doesn't even force all <foo>ers to consider the <baz> reasoning.  Indeed, even whether they actively <bar> or not...  And other combinations.


No, clarity obviously still escapes me.  But I believe I understand where you're coming from (so don't worry about that too much), and perhaps I've conveyed just enough to put you back at ease on this point.
Yeah, I think understand where you're coming from now too. I believe we're cool.
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In the wells of livestock vans with shells and garden sands /
Iron mixed with oxygen as per the laws of chemistry and chance /
A shape was roughly human, it was only roughly human /
Apparition eyes / Apparition eyes / Knock, apparition, knock / Eyes, apparition eyes /

MetalSlimeHunt

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Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
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Frumple

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Not even going to click that, but I know beyond the shadow of a doubt my day would have been better without even knowing about that, never mind what they've actually done this time. Sue baiting is something that's pretty morally reprehensible :-\
Once again, the Westboro Baptist Church has decided to get involved.
oh for fuck's sake!

are they trying to piss everyone off? if so, it's definitely working!
Yes, yes, they actually are. Get people to go over the line that legality has established, sue the hell out of them. As I understand, that's basically WBC's modus operandi. They're playing a legal game of flame baiting.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2012, 08:43:38 pm by Frumple »
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What your country can hump for you.
Ask!
What you can hump for your country.

Leafsnail

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Are those actual hashtags or is he making them up at a rate of about 4 per tweet?
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Heliman

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I found out today that the shooter came from my town, San Diego.

Apparently, he graduated 6 years ago from Westview highschool, the rival school of my old highschool.

...Which is wierd, because Westview has only been a school for 5 years, and started with a freshman/sophmore student body.


EDIT: Their site now says they started in 2002... Government conspiracy or am I just balling?
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kaenneth

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if he had decided to shoot up a WBC 'Protest' instead, he would have gotten a little sympathy.

edit: also, about the Paris opening being cancelled...

"Gunman in Colorado; France Surrenders"
« Last Edit: July 23, 2012, 11:58:23 am by kaenneth »
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Jeeze. Any time I want to be sigged I may as well just post in this thread.
Quote from: Darvi
That is an application of trigonometry that never occurred to me.
Quote from: PTTG??
I'm getting cake.
Don't tell anyone that you can see their shadows. If they hear you telling anyone, if you let them know that you know of them, they will get you.

RedKing

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if he had decided to shoot up a WBC 'Protest' instead, he would have gotten a little sympathy.
if he had shot up a WBC protest, he'd be a national hero.
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Remember, knowledge is power. The power to make other people feel stupid.
Quote from: Neil DeGrasse Tyson
Science is like an inoculation against charlatans who would have you believe whatever it is they tell you.
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