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[Graknorke]

Your assuming who ever dose this thinks of this as "just a simulation" and is of human feelings which again the bible claims God is not

Not wishing to upset the apple-cart, but what the bible claims doesn't mean anything to anyone who doesn't actually believe in the bible.  Only circular arguments can occur in your attempts to prove that the bible is true because (essentially) the bible says so.  Also, you have to compete with innumerable other (most exclusively self-styled) holy texts from the various Torah/Bible/Quranic variations a lot of us are probably quite familiar with through various Vedas, Sutras, the Tao Te Ching and on and on and on until the likes of the book on Dianetics and whatever the Pastafarians currently refer to...

(edited for speeling eroors.)

so your going to take the bible at the parts you want
(God is all powerful, he allows slavrey etc)
But ignore things that are good because it comes form the bible?

No. The deal is that information from the Bible is only applicable to people and events that come from the fictional context of the Bible. Using the Bible to try and prove objective truths about the universe (for example, you saying that the universe isn't a simulation because the Bible says it isn't) doesn't work.

[Max White]

Well to my understanding, the Aztecs thought that if they didn't sacrifice people, the sun would stop moving across the sky. So one could argue that they were humanitarian about it because they were sacrificing few for the sake of many. Putting the needs of the collective before the needs of the individual.
The problem was letting faith distort facts. The fact of the matter is that they didn't need to kill people, the sun would have kept going anyway! It was their faith that made them commit acts that we now see as immoral.

[MagmaMcFry]

Your assuming who ever dose this thinks of this as "just a simulation" and is of human feelings which again the bible claims God is not

Not wishing to upset the apple-cart, but what the bible claims doesn't mean anything to anyone who doesn't actually believe in the bible.  Only circular arguments can occur in your attempts to prove that the bible is true because (essentially) the bible says so.  Also, you have to compete with innumerable other (most exclusively self-styled) holy texts from the various Torah/Bible/Quranic variations a lot of us are probably quite familiar with through various Vedas, Sutras, the Tao Te Ching and on and on and on until the likes of the book on Dianetics and whatever the Pastafarians currently refer to...

(edited for speeling eroors.)

so your going to take the bible at the parts you want
(God is all powerful, he allows slavrey etc)
But ignore things that are good because it comes form the bible?

The only thing we are trying to do is to show you that the Bible is a heap of contradictory randomness, and that its contents are therefore not allowed to be used to prove anything at all. The good things that are in the Bible aren't good because they're in the Bible, so you don't need the Bible to show they're good, and the fact that some things in the bible are correct does not mean that everything else is correct too.

[XXSockXX]

IIRC the aztecs sacrificed mostly prisoners captured in ritualistic wars and people they received as tribute from other tribes. Which is another instance of religious humanism only extending to group members, while outsiders are fair game.

[Max White]

Actually you know what really annoys me?
When people start trying to sell their faith to you, and you say 'Sorry, I'm [ANY_FAITH_HERE]' then they tend to just go away. Tell them 'Sorry, I'm an atheist' and they try even harder! Why is atheist not a valid enough option for you to fuck off and stop quoting the bible at me? I don't go in for that bullshit! I know about Christianity, I went to a fucking catholic school! Don't think that the only reason I'm not on my knees praying to god is because I have never heard of Jesus before! Yes I have 'Heard the good news!' and found it a little unbelievable, if depressing. If I were Jewish or Hindi you would tip your hat and bid me farewell, but as an atheist suddenly I must just be ignorant of the bible!

Fucking street preachers...

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Theists fishing for converts usually get the idea in their heads that atheists are morons who have never thought about religion before and are ripe for the picking by whatever group gets to them first. How they come to this idea eludes me, but they do.

[fqllve]

IIRC the aztecs sacrificed mostly prisoners captured in ritualistic wars and people they received as tribute from other tribes. Which is another instance of religious humanism only extending to group members, while outsiders are fair game.

Nah, Aztec sacrifices included a lot of people. Obviously the most famous would be the ballplayers, but priests would self-sacrifice and especially beautiful children were also used.

But I think the majority were still slaves and prisoners, yeah.

[Wolfy]

When he created the universe, he set it up knowing exactly what everyone would do, and what exactly would for its whole history (assuming that you believe he is omniscient that is). He did this in the exact same way when you type up a program and tell it to print: "Hello World" if X is 10, and you set X to 10, then it will print "Hello World", just like you knew it would.

Omniscient means knowing everything that is knowable, if the future is not knowable then he cant know it, but is still omniscient

Sure, you "chose" to do whatever you are going to do, just like the program "chose" to print "Hello World".
Yes, you are billions of times more complex then a program like that, but since god is omniscient, it doesn't matter how complex you are.

Wrong, because while he knows what we ?"pick" we make the choice, yes saturation affect it, free will dose not mean your choice cant be influenced, it just means you GET to decide a path, not that you have nothing blocking it

I have freedom in U.s it don't mean I can do what ever dose it?

Would\

But he did. When he was creating the universe, he looked at it, and knew that in 2012 you were going to tap dance. He could have slightly altered how he created the universe, or slightly changed any of his interventions (which assuming he was omniscient, he also knew what he was going to do even before he created the universe) and could have easily stopped you from tap dancing if he wanted to.

wrong again, we don't know if that can or can not be known, and even then your not taking in to acount that he lets us pick, so yes our things our influenced, by things God lets happen, but they happen by free will and laws that where set

again free will never ever says you will never have anything block it, just that you have control of your body, you are in control, God dont say "Go tap dance" and makes you.

If he doesn't know everything all the time, then he isn't omniscient.
It doesn't matter if its impossible to know, if he doesn't know it anyways then he isn't omniscient. Similarly, if he chooses not to know everything, while he has the potential to be omniscient, then he really isn't.

check definition of omniscient

2. having very great or seemingly unlimited knowledge

thats one

possessed of universal or complete knowledge

this all assumes that the future is knowledge before ti happens, if it is not, then he don't have to, if time dose change around and can be altar, if we can still make all choices then he can know what we do, and if we happen to changed it still know what we do as he knows everything, we humans cant wrap our heads around it but that's the idea
How can you or I begun to know what it is?

And even then your assuming if he "desired"  to change it he would, he dose not because its FREE will,. if he did change thew future like you said, so that it did not happen that would not be free will

Just because he can watch every move we take dose NOT mean it was not our choice to make

I see God as more of watching over time in this regard yes he knows what happens, but becuse he can go to the point in time where we, of our own free will made the choice

Was it affected by things? yes but we never said 100% total nothing will get in the way
just free will, your free to make up your mind based on whats going on rather then having to do what some computer or God says.

Your assuming when God made the universe he went forward in time and said "so that happen and so I'm going to make this world instead of another" (We have no proof making another one with free will would do anything)

Your assuming also that God can even

your assuming if God initiated it a diffident way, him doing that is what ends up picking what we do, I believe he mad the unverse, and WE get to pick
He may of made 50 worlds
and each one is a blank slate, nothing about picking world one form him means that it will happen

your also assuming God controls the future

Can he do these things? could he mess with it? YES, but the idea is he has giving us free will and so dose not do these things
A. "set up" the future in a diffident away, if we do have free will and he dont get in our way of it then how CAN he set it up? he lets us pick
He is all powerful and all knowing, but that means knowin all that CAN be known, and doing all that CAN be done.
Never says what CAN be known and done and not.

Your first few sentences in this quote are a bit hard to read, and so I might be getting the meaning wrong.

God doesn't control the future. He made the universe, and set everything into motion, the physical laws (that he created) control the future. But he doesn't need to control it to have chosen exactly how it would turn out when he created it.

Knowing what exactly what will happen isn't a active choice on his part. It is done as long as he is omniscient.

FAKEEDIT: Gah, beaten by telgin.
[/quote]


I've seen it time and time again you keep putting the parts that we believe and say "don't count, its only in the bible" but have no problems taking other parts in the bible and using  them?
We believe God is OMNISCIENT, we cant even begun to know what that means, the term we use is he knows all that can be known, for all we know he may know more, it may be possible for him to know every action we take anywhere anytime, multilevel times throughout with diffident actions

we cant say "oh he knows this" "but God must know the furthest" "but God can change it so this happens" etc
because we don't know how God did it, if God made the universe where the way it worked was future was NOT set in stone, maybe he can see all actions we can ever take, and the one we will take etc will be "right" since the all happen

WE can explain it, just like we cant explain the big bang very well, or many other things

we cant explain a lot about either side, it dont make them wrong, it dont mean they are not valid, we just are not at the level of compassion needed

The only thing we are trying to do is to show you that the Bible is a heap of contradictory randomness, and that its contents are therefore not allowed to be used to prove anything at all.

But its not, if you take all the bible says instead of allowing this part and that part only it makes sense for as far as we can understand, misquotes and ironing verses  is all I've seen

If your talking as if MY God is real then read the bible FULL dont say "well cant use that" then use two others to claim heap of contradictory randomness, you will not find one that cant be explained by
A. error of man
B. your reading of it

for exsample the bible says we have free will, but you deny that, you ASSUMED free will cant exist with omniscience, with the very idea of omniscience is knowing everything even what actions we would take WITH OUR free will, that IS free will
but you deny that becuse it dont work

either take the bible as it says
A. We have free will
B. God is omniscience (what was the original world in the real rouge? was it even close to the same word? an example they did not have the term bird back then, which is why bats are labled as birds cause the closest translation was "flying things"
An example, some definitions say appeared,others say whats ONLY knowable, so whats knowable? the future? we dont know.
is our actions? in the sense he knows every single one we could pick, and maybe even some how they all get picked
WE DON'T KNOW
Just like we don't know what is on the other side of a black hole, what happens when you go fatser then the speed of light (if you can) or if we can time travel, this in no way makes science "wrong" no way makes it heap of contradictory randomnes dose it?

[Graknorke]

Okay. Wolfy. Here you go. This is from the Oxford English Dictionary website, which is pretty much the final resourse on English langiage definitions. A dictionary.

Definition of omniscient
adjective

    knowing everything
            : a third-person omniscient narrator

There is no conditional "everything that can be known." If there are unknowable things, then nothing is omniscient.

[XXSockXX]

Theists fishing for converts usually get the idea in their heads that atheists are morons who have never thought about religion before and are ripe for the picking by whatever group gets to them first. How they come to this idea eludes me, but they do.

I guess in the same way that I can't wrap my head around the concept of "faith", they can't understand how someone could lack "faith".
In the end religious people have more in common with each other than they think, like the christian right and muslim extremists. On the other hand I hate it when people think it's a good way to integrate minorities by announcing that "we all worship the same god" when actually many of us do not believe in said god.

[Max White]

~Suff

How do you know the future is unknowable?
AND you aren't allowed to say because we have free will. You justified free will by saying that the future is unknowable, so that would just make a meaningless circular argument.

[Fenrir]

If your talking as if MY God is real then read the bible FULL dont say "well cant use that" then use two others to claim heap of contradictory randomness, you will not find one that cant be explained by
A. error of man
B. your reading of it

The parts that insist God exists could be explained by human error too, so you have yet to demonstrate to us why you find the Bible to be such reliable evidence for God and free will.

[Machiavelli]

Interesting discussion, but this is really bothering me:  it's spelled "does'.  A "dose" is a measured administration of something.

Søren Kierkegaard examines the religious extremists in his book Fear and Trembling.  The reason you have religious extremists is because they are both supported by a system of belief--religion is supported by a willingness to believe, and to accept the rules and social constructs of that religion as trumping those of society.  The same goes for extremism, though one might extend "society" to include normal practitioners of the religion.

Take Abraham, for example.  Killing your own son is absolutely contrary to societal constructs.  However, when God tells Abraham to kill his son, Isaac, Abraham goes ahead with it.  Though he is stopped by God, this illustrates the concept of the "teleological suspension of the ethical" ('telos' is Greek for 'goal'); that is, the substitution of faith-based goals for those that are considered acceptable by society, with the two goals often being in direct conflict.

This is prevalent in most religions (though not always related to violence) because of the requirement of submission to omniscient beings.  You can argue about the definition of 'omniscient' all you want, but God is also defined as "all-powerful and all-knowing", so it's kind of moot.

[Thecard]

Yeah, the whole "we all worship the same God" is more to unify Christians and Muslims, since we seem to hate each other for some reason*.

I'll be honest.  I'm of the opinion Jesus does not want us to thump the Bible at others.  Every time I see someone being extreme right or left and rubbing it in someone's face, I imagine Jesus looking down from the sky and just shaking his head "Dick move, bro."

Going out and yelling at people to convert, that's not right.  It wouldn't be right to hide my Christianity either though. 
The best I can do is be good to everyone I meet and show my faith through my actions.
Not through my bullhorn.






*Not realizing assholes come in all kinds of colors.  Christian, Muslim, Atheist, Hindu, so on.  Every philosophy is going to have at least a few bad apples.

[fqllve]

I'll be honest.  I'm of the opinion Jesus does not want us to thump the Bible at others.

This. Other than politicized Christianity, the only real problem I have with the religion (or any really) is when people proselytize. It's rude, insensitive, pointless, and only really turns people against your position. Atheists do it to, and it irks me just as much, it's just much less frequent than with theists.

I just wish we could all let people believe what they want, unless it's actively causing harm. I think it's just that people do think [insert position here] is actively causing harm...