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[Wolfy]

Well, God differs from your mom that he picked the version of you that picked the guitar, and not the version of you that didn't. So God decided to make you so you pick the guitar, effectively deciding whether you pick the guitar or not. Your mom can't do that.

you mis my point, what proof you have god picked ANY version?
What if every time god makes a universe, its not "who picks what" clean slate they get to pick.
What if, he makes the universe and I can do say 5 choices, every universe he made I pick something I, it was not the universe he picked that made it happen

it be like a video game, evreytime we play its diffident, we choice evreytime,


where at all dose it say a universe is decide by what action we all take? what if each and every one of them is open to what ever that person picks?
so in this case, he did not pick it, it just a possible outcome he sees, he did not say "I'm going to make the one where Wolf picks jumping of a bridge" its clean slate wolfy 2 picks, of his own free will to do it, but wolfy 3 dose not, its not of cause what one he put them in.

A time traveller sees the future. God picks out the future.

I disagree, you will find no proof of this.
God knows our future because he can see in forward in time where we have already made our choices

At first, people looked at the ground, and seeing that it certainly looks flat, they took that as evidence that the whole world is flat (and since nobody had contrary evidence, they were fine with believing that).
Then, people started taking closer looks at the moon, the sun and the stars from different points on Earth, finding evidence for the fact that the world is actually round. Smart people accepted the evidence (Babylonians, Mayans, Galileo etc). Others refused to accept.

See how those people always have had a good reason to think stuff? Now see how this doesn't apply to God?

and it took time to find this evdince, just cause we dont have it now dont mean we cant have it later
nothing says we cant find evinced of God

Well, since there is life on our planet, and since there are other planets, it is only natural to believe that other planets have life too. A few centuries ago, people generally believed that there was life on every planet (also the moon), since all planets with testable inhabitation status (read: Earth) were inhabited.

Okay, since there is life on earth then odds are something made it, since there is so many laws at play for this to work out at all it seems like something had to made it (read God)

Okay, you say it was something intelligent. But why in the world would that be exactly the narcisstic split-personality no-sense-of-priority devil-blaming eccentric-rule-inventing vengeful-but-all-forgiving christian God?

#1 you will see my believe is its not Satan fault but our own, we choice to sin, so my god dose not do that
#2 rule inventing, mankind has been inventing rules since the dawn of time, he dose nothing there that we have not
#3 it dont have to be that God (thats not my God) it could be aliens, it could be a turtle, it could be anything
but when I look at history see how this connects to everything  and how many follow it I cant help but feel SOMETHING is there, do I think any of us got it right 100%? NO, but none of the others seem close to me

dont mean they are not


SOOOOO you been wrong on what I believe, and dont get the idea that I admit I don't know if its that God or not...
have you even tried to read my posts? I know it can be hard, but the points where I point these things out are (realistically) good English, and said several times, others did not seem to have a problem getting that point at least....
Also my God is  powerful loving caring all-forgiving christian God.
You do not read that when you look at the bible, that's FINE, neither dose your family members most likely (and they will have diffident form you too in most cases)

but to me God is a loving God, who dose not control  our every move, we, and we alone are to blame for our problems, we choice to sin, he dont make us.


Put it this way, you read the bible and see bad, and everything that can go wrong
someone else reads it and sees fairy tale
others read it and see nothing
etc
It dont mean the God you, I, or the pope reads out of it is the real God

[Askot Bokbondeler]

Also, with the whole controlling the future thing, I don't think God is controlling the future.  Sure he knows what will work out best for me and everyone else, but he isn't making me do it.  He's just encouraging it.

you have to think of it in light of the idea that everything has a cause and an effect, and if there is only one continuous timeline, everything only has one cause and one effect, therefore you can trace all that happens to an original cause: god's action. since god knew the future beforehand, and all the consequences of his action, he is to be blamed by everything bad that happened, for he not only *let* it happen, but he *chose* that it happen among the infinite number of possibilities. if he is able to create a perfect existence in heaven, he would be able to create a perfect existence on earth. he chose not to, and that's why we shit and piss and suffer and hate and starve and die

[MagmaMcFry]

Right.  I follow what the Bible says, but I also think I can talk with God through prayer, and so I trust my feelings about God instead of just blindly following the Bible.

So what's God saying? Ask him why he doesn't provide evidence for his own existence, because I can't seem to talk to him myself.

Also, I think it's pretty obvious God created us using science as a tool.  But that's just how it seems to me.

Science is not a tool, it is an activity practiced by non-omniscient sentients to find out how the world works.

Also, with the whole controlling the future thing, I don't think God is controlling the future.  Sure he knows what will work out best for me and everyone else, but he isn't making me do it.  He's just encouraging it.

So you doubt his omniscience?

[Hiiri]

Right.  I follow what the Bible says, but I also think I can talk with God through prayer, and so I trust my feelings about God instead of just blindly following the Bible.

Have you ever changed your mind about something after praying? Or did you just receive confirmation on your pre-existing ideas?

[Descan]

And once you have done all the things?

Do them again.

Life isn't a checklist, bro.

And as for "Death is better than Alzheimer's" that's true. But doesn't the fact that you had to go to a disease that literally degrades your brain to find something worse than death mean anything?

If you had to choose between a normal life, Alzheimer's, and death... You'd choose a normal life. Alzheimer's and death is a false dichotomy.

Substitute Alzheimer's with whatever you want to.

Oh, and hoping to guess right out of a thousand different religions, and if you don't guess right, whoops burn in Hell forever... That's not a choice.

[Wolfy]

Also, with the whole controlling the future thing, I don't think God is controlling the future.  Sure he knows what will work out best for me and everyone else, but he isn't making me do it.  He's just encouraging it.

you have to think of it in light of the idea that everything has a cause and an effect, and if there is only one continuous timeline, everything only has one cause and one effect, therefore you can trace all that happens to an original cause: god's action. since god knew the future beforehand, and all the consequences of his action, he is to be blamed by everything bad that happened, for he not only *let* it happen, but he *chose* that it happen among the infinite number of possibilities. if he is able to create a perfect existence in heaven, he would be able to create a perfect existence on earth. he chose not to, and that's why we shit and piss and suffer and hate and starve and die

But read the bible, they had the perfect life, and they messed it up by sinning, and you still sin as well as I

So he did make it "perfect" (only more he could do was make it where we dont have free will and are nothing more then robots)

whats more your logic is still flawed, where at all is it stated that him pick world #3,4,5,6,or 7 decides what choices we made?

what if that dont? where is your proof, bible or no that thats the case?

So you doubt his omniscience?

All that means is knowing everything, it in no way means that that = that picking earth 1 changes, or affects what choices we make.

Science is not a tool, it is an activity practiced by non-omniscient sentients to find out how the world works.

for us? yes but for them? it may varry well be a tool, in the sense, that's how they prove they exist, thats their evdince to us, that evreything works, and that it all follows law's
some say "it just happen"

But others in past would of said the same about those who went around the world, denying that as proof and saying "it just happen"
Same for mircals, when you see them you think "there has to be a reason" what if the reason it happen, say a antitoxin, is only there because God made it possible? is that not a mircal?

Both sides deny evinced for the other if thats the case
 

So what's God saying? Ask him why he doesn't provide evidence for his own existence, because I can't seem to talk to him myself.

so why do you talk to him? to prove he is there?
How do you feel about him? if he exists he is a dick?
do you think he dont exist?

if you answered yes to any of those then maybe that's the reason you have not heard him, or maybe he don't exist, I dont know.

Oh, and hoping to guess right out of a thousand different religions, and if you don't guess right, whoops burn in Hell forever... That's not a choice.

Okay your in a spce station with exsape pods, you can pick form a thousand, only one will "work"\get you out alive, its still a choice

*I do belive that if you believe in "God" and that he loves and came to safe us your sage, names don't matter, God has had 50 in the bible and many more else where,.
 

[fqllve]

And as for "Death is better than Alzheimer's" that's true. But doesn't the fact that you had to go to a disease that literally degrades your brain to find something worse than death mean anything?

That wasn't really my point at all. Askot said having loved ones die was terrible without an afterlife, I just brought that up to say, not always. Wasn't bringing up any dichotomies whatsoever.

[Askot Bokbondeler]

But others in past would of said the same about those who went around the world, denying that as proof and saying "it just happen"
Same for mircals, when you see them you think "there has to be a reason" what if the reason it happen, say a antitoxin, is only there because God made it possible? is that not a mircal?

i gotta sig this

[Thecard]

I don't doubt God's ability to do anything.  But he isn't going to make us do anything.  He isn't interested in making a dystopia.
And I think God knows what will happen if I choose one choice over another not through seeing the future, but just by knowing what happens if we choose that.  Like, if I let go of a ball, I know it will fall even though I can't see the future.
Really, I don't know why some people automatically assume knowing what is going to happen is only possible by actually seeing the future.  I know eating beans at Moes is going to give me the poops, but I didn't look through a crystal ball to figure it out.  I just know what beans do to my body.

Right.  I follow what the Bible says, but I also think I can talk with God through prayer, and so I trust my feelings about God instead of just blindly following the Bible.

Have you ever changed your mind about something after praying? Or did you just receive confirmation on your pre-existing ideas?

Actually, yes.
I'm not going to go into detail about what is probably the best example of it though, because it's extremely personal and something I am in no way proud of any more.

But I was pretty much an agnostic until three or four years ago.

Prayer also led me to accept gay people, as ironic as that may seem to some of you.

Oh, prayer also stopped me from committing suicide on more than one occasion.  Without God, I honestly think I would have been found facedown in the bathtub years ago.

[Wolfy]

So do you deny that if God created the things that cure these things its not a miracal? yes or no, don't mention if you dont think he did, we are talking about him as if he dose exist, and how "bad" you think he is, therefor he dose exist (for this augment)_ and created everything, and ever cure we have

Are those not miracles?
would you not say God making us in the first place evince of him?

[Descan]

It's not a choice because the guy who built the universe, or escape pods, knows exactly which one will work. And not only that, but he knows what you, or I, need to believe him.

But he doesn't tell us. He doesn't even tell us he exists.

That's why it isn't a proper choice, because if I had the right information, of course I'd choose the working pod.

In this situation, the guy who built the pods would be legally considered negligent at least. And since he knows but does not say, he'd also be guilty of murder through inaction.

[MagmaMcFry]

Spoiler: Another really long post (click to show/hide)

Well, God differs from your mom that he picked the version of you that picked the guitar, and not the version of you that didn't. So God decided to make you so you pick the guitar, effectively deciding whether you pick the guitar or not. Your mom can't do that.

you mis my point, what proof you have god picked ANY version?
What if every time god makes a universe, its not "who picks what" clean slate they get to pick.
What if, he makes the universe and I can do say 5 choices, every universe he made I pick something I, it was not the universe he picked that made it happen

it be like a video game, evreytime we play its diffident, we choice evreytime,


where at all dose it say a universe is decide by what action we all take? what if each and every one of them is open to what ever that person picks?
so in this case, he did not pick it, it just a possible outcome he sees, he did not say "I'm going to make the one where Wolf picks jumping of a bridge" its clean slate wolfy 2 picks, of his own free will to do it, but wolfy 3 dose not, its not of cause what one he put them in.

A time traveller sees the future. God picks out the future.

I disagree, you will find no proof of this.
God knows our future because he can see in forward in time where we have already made our choices

Please rewrite this section in proper English, I have no idea what you're trying to say here.

At first, people looked at the ground, and seeing that it certainly looks flat, they took that as evidence that the whole world is flat (and since nobody had contrary evidence, they were fine with believing that).
Then, people started taking closer looks at the moon, the sun and the stars from different points on Earth, finding evidence for the fact that the world is actually round. Smart people accepted the evidence (Babylonians, Mayans, Galileo etc). Others refused to accept.

See how those people always have had a good reason to think stuff? Now see how this doesn't apply to God?

and it took time to find this evdince, just cause we dont have it now dont mean we cant have it later
nothing says we cant find evinced of God

But until then, I laugh at you.

Well, since there is life on our planet, and since there are other planets, it is only natural to believe that other planets have life too. A few centuries ago, people generally believed that there was life on every planet (also the moon), since all planets with testable inhabitation status (read: Earth) were inhabited.

Okay, since there is life on earth then odds are something made it, since there is so many laws at play for this to work out at all it seems like something had to made it (read God)

Even if the odds that a universe randomly creates life were low, the odds that a universe randomly creates life given that there are people in the universe discussing it are exactly 1.
If you ask a random person "Have you won the lottery", then you'll very likely get a "No" back. But if you ask a random lottery winner, you'll always get a "Yes". Now let's assume that all non-lottery-winners are neutered. After a few generations, everyone will have a lottery winner as an ancestor. Now imagine somebody saying "OMFG MY GREAT-GRAMPA WON THE LOTTERY IM SO LUCKY THEREFORE GOD MUST EXIST". Sounds stupid, right? That's how you sound right now.

Okay, you say it was something intelligent. But why in the world would that be exactly the narcisstic split-personality no-sense-of-priority devil-blaming eccentric-rule-inventing vengeful-but-all-forgiving christian God?

#1 you will see my believe is its not Satan fault but our own, we choice to sin, so my god dose not do that
#2 rule inventing, mankind has been inventing rules since the dawn of time, he dose nothing there that we have not
#3 it dont have to be that God (thats not my God) it could be aliens, it could be a turtle, it could be anything
but when I look at history see how this connects to everything  and how many follow it I cant help but feel SOMETHING is there, do I think any of us got it right 100%? NO, but none of the others seem close to me
dont mean they are not

SOOOOO you been wrong on what I believe, and dont get the idea that I admit I don't know if its that God or not...
have you even tried to read my posts? I know it can be hard, but the points where I point these things out are (realistically) good English, and said several times, others did not seem to have a problem getting that point at least....
Also my God is  powerful loving caring all-forgiving christian God.
You do not read that when you look at the bible, that's FINE, neither dose your family members most likely (and they will have diffident form you too in most cases)

Okay, so you're basically a lightweight christian, without any dogmatic beliefs about the real world. Since your testable beliefs about the observable universe don't seem to differ from mine, we can stop arguing now.

but to me God is a loving God, who dose not control  our every move, we, and we alone are to blame for our problems, we choice to sin, he dont make us.


Put it this way, you read the bible and see bad, and everything that can go wrong
someone else reads it and sees fairy tale
others read it and see nothing
etc
It dont mean the God you, I, or the pope reads out of it is the real God

Okay, you believe in whichever god is real, and you believe in a loving, forgiving, non-controlling god. Do these gods know each other? 

So do you deny that if God created the things that cure these things its not a miracal? yes or no, don't mention if you dont think he did, we are talking about him as if he dose exist, and how "bad" you think he is, therefor he dose exist (for this augment)_ and created everything, and ever cure we have

Are those not miracles?
would you not say God making us in the first place evince of him?

God didn't create the antitoxins. Scientists reverse-engineered the universe rulebooks and exploited them. Also, don't forget that God would also have created the toxins themselves.

Also, with the whole controlling the future thing, I don't think God is controlling the future.  Sure he knows what will work out best for me and everyone else, but he isn't making me do it.  He's just encouraging it.

you have to think of it in light of the idea that everything has a cause and an effect, and if there is only one continuous timeline, everything only has one cause and one effect, therefore you can trace all that happens to an original cause: god's action. since god knew the future beforehand, and all the consequences of his action, he is to be blamed by everything bad that happened, for he not only *let* it happen, but he *chose* that it happen among the infinite number of possibilities. if he is able to create a perfect existence in heaven, he would be able to create a perfect existence on earth. he chose not to, and that's why we shit and piss and suffer and hate and starve and die

But read the bible, they had the perfect life, and they messed it up by sinning, and you still sin as well as I

So he did make it "perfect" (only more he could do was make it where we dont have free will and are nothing more then robots)

whats more your logic is still flawed, where at all is it stated that him pick world #3,4,5,6,or 7 decides what choices we made?

what if that dont? where is your proof, bible or no that thats the case?

No, the fun thing is that since God already knows the future, he will already know what we pick. Since he can make any universe, he can also make one with versions of us that are the same in all respects except that we would pick another world in this specific case.

So what's God saying? Ask him why he doesn't provide evidence for his own existence, because I can't seem to talk to him myself.

so why do you talk to him? to prove he is there?
How do you feel about him? if he exists he is a dick?
do you think he dont exist?

if you answered yes to any of those then maybe that's the reason you have not heard him, or maybe he don't exist, I dont know.

so why do you talk to him?

Yes.

How do you feel about him?

Yes.

or maybe he don't exist, I dont know.

Okay, so you're a theist agnostic now. We're making progress

[Bdthemag]

So do you deny that if God created the things that cure these things its not a miracal? yes or no, don't mention if you dont think he did, we are talking about him as if he dose exist, and how "bad" you think he is, therefor he dose exist (for this augment)_ and created everything, and ever cure we have

Are those not miracles?
would you not say God making us in the first place evince of him?

God didn't create those things, people did. Extremely well educated and intelligent scientists created those cures, there's actually direct proof indisputable proof that Jonas Salk create the vaccine for polio. Seriously, this might be a shock to you but look it up. But let's assume that in your argument that god really did magically cure this disease. He also created it, but why? To punish mankind? You could say that, but why would an all-knowing and all-powerful god create a disease to punish mankind, then cure it. Then do the same thing over and over again throughout history.

[Wolfy]

It's not a choice because the guy who built the universe, or escape pods, knows exactly which one will work. And not only that, but he knows what you, or I, need to believe him.

But he doesn't tell us. He doesn't even tell us he exists.

That's why it isn't a proper choice, because if I had the right information, of course I'd choose the working pod.

In this situation, the guy who built the pods would be legally considered negligent at least. And since he knows but does not say, he'd also be guilty of murder through inaction.

But you dont know that, the guy who built the space pod dont know which one will get shot down by bad guys.
God knows what choices you will make, but what proof do you have him making this universe means that he picked "any" of our choices

put it this way
Universe 1
universe 2
universe 3

Nothing at all says that each universe has a preset choices, they could all be the same in the end, what I'm saying is him saying
"Universe one" dont mean we will have this convo each time, heck if he restarted it, its possible it would be a diffreint outcome

(I'm not saying thats how it works, just thats ONE way it COULD work)
put shortly, when he made this universe, I dont believe he said "okay looking, ah this is the one where he dies by the worst death ever)
I think its more of he sees all possible outcomes and choices mixed, and if needs to can look to the future to see which one we did pick

But WE not god, picked it, he did not pick a universe that binds us to anything, we still pick

Also he did tell you he existed, in the bible, in the story's passed down, the fact you are here, its all evdince of something more working but you look at it and go "meh its something else"

But until then, I laugh at you.

Like when they made the plane? said the world was round? said evolution happen?
Yeah being on the laughing side history wise dont turn out so well did it?

Please rewrite this section in proper English, I have no idea what you're trying to say here.

Universe 1
universe 2
inverse 3
etc all the way to for ever
THEY ALL NOT set by our choices, they where made and THEN we made the choices, universe 1 is not universe one because I tap dance with monkeys, I'm saying there is no proof that him picking unverse 1 means this list of choices compared to 2
We dont know how universes work

Even if the odds that a universe randomly creates life were low, the odds that a universe randomly creates life given that there are people in the universe discussing it are exactly 1.
If you ask a random person "Have you won the lottery", then you'll very likely get a "No" back. But if you ask a random lottery winner, you'll always get a "Yes". Now let's assume that all non-lottery-winners are neutered. After a few generations, everyone will have a lottery winner as an ancestor. Now imagine somebody saying "OMFG MY GREAT-GRAMPA WON THE LOTTERY IM SO LUCKY THEREFORE GOD MUST EXIST". Sounds stupid, right? That's how you sound right now.

You would be wrong. I'm not saying ANYTHING is or not, I'm just saying WE DONT KNOW HOW THE UNIVERSES WORK
We cant say for sure him picking universe 1 means I will do X

Okay, you believe in whichever god is real, and you believe in a loving, forgiving, non-controlling god. Do these gods know each other? 

You sir fail, for the last time, I dont know which God is real, I believe mine is, hell, ALL GODS could be real.
Your assuming the real God is NOT mine, why?

God didn't create the antitoxins. Scientists reverse-engineered the universe rulebooks and exploited them. Also, don't forget that God would also have created the toxins themselves.

oh so when science dose something its science that did it but when its bad things god made it where it could happen?
Pick and chose much?
Yes God created the toxins, they have their uses, they help many things live, just like a cat must eat, or a human must eat so to do microlifes, and just like we protect our selfs so to poison things

No, the fun thing is that since God already knows the future, he will already know what we pick. Since he can make any universe, he can also make one with versions of us that are the same in all respects except that we would pick another world in this specific case.

You forgetting two things
A. your assuming God created the universes based on the choices we made in those, what proof do you have its not?
B. Your assuming that him "picking" a universe means the future cant be changed, my idea is he sees evre possible choice in each area, but not all of them will happen, he also sees each one so that they all happen at one point, when we not god pick it, he did not force it, he made the universe and said "go" and we did what we wanted, God did not make a universe where I tap dance, he made universe where I could PICK to tap dance

Okay, so you're a theist agnostic now. We're making progress

You miss the point, I BELIVE he exists, but I cant prove it was my point, I've been adding that or words to that affect every post, nothing to do with me changing anything at all.
Answer those questions please.

God didn't create those things, people did. Extremely well educated and intelligent scientists created those cures, there's actually direct proof indisputable proof that Jonas Salk create the vaccine for polio. Seriously, this might be a shock to you but look it up. But let's assume that in your argument that god really did magically cure this disease. He also created it, but why? To punish mankind? You could say that, but why would an all-knowing and all-powerful god create a disease to punish mankind, then cure it. Then do the same thing over and over again throughout history.

So your willing to put that6 God made it possible for evil to happen and so its on him but, when something good happens it was because of science and God deserves nothing?
As to why do it? most desire come form things that are bad for you, colds come form Bactria, which is alive, and thats how it lives, just like a tiger eats a bunny to live
As we eat a chicken to live
they to Infectious disease have to
Autoimmune diseasee: bit harder how ever that cause we really don't know what causes it and if we always had it, maybe inbreeding caused it the first time, maybe it was something else, but dont assumed it just "happen" we really don't know enough to say why it happens science wise even.
An example "Addison's disease"
"The condition arises from problems with the adrenal gland, "primary adrenal insufficiency", and can be caused by damage by the body's own immune system, certain infections"
Thats why that one happens our body gets danged and so cause problems
Can I exspalin every one and why it happens?
No, but neither can science, that dont make science false or less real

some happen because of our diet, some happen because of sexual activity
How did they form? when? why?

Your science cant answer it, but you expect us to?
I belive god has the awnser, but I don't, I'm not him

[Bdthemag]

Okay, I'm kind of struggling to understand what you're trying to convey. I'm not sure if you speak English or what, but seriously try to proofread your posts at least a little bit.

I was simply using your train of thought when suggesting god created the evil things, along with the good things. I was pointing out it doesn't make sense that a god would create bad things to punish mankind, then get rid of them later only to re-introduce another bad thing to punish mankind again. When I told you that Scientists were the one that cured the diseases, that wasn't related to the argument that followed afterwards.

So let me pose a hypothetical question to you. If an all knowing and all powerful being decided to create Earth and all Life on it, why did he make it so extremely complex? You'd think it'd save him a lot of time to make it so things work in extremely simple ways, or just because they do. If he's all powerful, it wouldn't matter if he made life to be an extremely complex series of chemical reactions, or just made it so it worked instantly without any of the complexities. Seems kind of stupid that someone would create something that is very complex, when the could of done the exact same job with less effort and complexity.