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[Descan]

Wait, why is "Whether you're good or bad, as long as you bribe the big guy with ego-stroking worship, you're in!" a good thing?

[Graknorke]

Wait, why is "Whether you're good or bad, as long as you bribe the big guy with ego-stroking worship, you're in!" a good thing?

That's not even true.
You have to sell all your stuff and give it to the poor. Jesus said it so many times.

[Glowcat]

Jesus said many things.

Or to be more accurate, those who reported what Jesus said made him say many things.

[Helgoland]

Meh, screw Pascal's wager. Any heaven that does not let in good heathens is not a heaven I want to be in anyways.

[Descan]

Whether it's true or not, why is it a -good- thing?!

I mean, I can see why it caught on. It's easier to convert people to your religion and get them giving 10% of their income to you if you can tell them that "Oh, you don't need to change what you do! Just say the magic words, go to the magic building once a week!"

But how is it a moral, good thing that you're basically bribing the bouncer to get into the club? :I


Plus you got all the Ghandis and Hitlers in the world, with their respective "Ghandi is in hell because he forgot the bribe the warden, Hitler is in heaven because he said the magic words."

And the dudes in, like, Tenochtitlan who never even -heard- of Jesus! What, do they all go to hell? Or are they all in heaven because they never heard the Word? And if the latter, WHY DID YOU TELL THEM ABOUT JESUS?!


[/end rant]

[Leafsnail]

Meh, screw Pascal's wager. Any heaven that does not let in good heathens is not a heaven I want to be in anyways.

Also there is an equal chance of a god who would send Christians/good people to hell etc

[fqllve]

So, interesting topic I saw brought upon some youtube video somewhere. This guy said that Christianity is the only religion where you can't earn heaven, but you have to simply turn away from sin and trust in Jesus' sacrifice alone, and that's why it's better to believe in that religion.

Much apart from priestly absolutions, paid-for Indulgences and the like, in Christianity's case, I've a feeling[1] that he's probably a Christian by birth, through life, and almost entirely through association (and within a sub-set of one of Christianity's various flavours, at that) who just doesn't know much more than the "official line" as brought forth by his pastor/priest/vicar/whatever, and has never seriously looked into what any other creed thinks...

The weird thing is the whole salvation through grace is more a feature of Protestantism than any fixture of Christianity and that some Muslims follow the exact same doctrine.

Frankly, I think the whole salvation by grace idea is one of the worst ones Christianity has had, it's just as bad as the aforementioned simony. Why would someone be rewarded for believing in something without evidence? Why would someone deserve a reward for that? I've heard the argument that "true faith brings true works" but not only is that a no true Scotsman fallacy but if you look at people with "true faith" it's not even true.

[Helgoland]

Meh, screw Pascal's wager. Any heaven that does not let in good heathens is not a heaven I want to be in anyways.

Also there is an equal chance of a god who would send Christians/good people to hell etc

The Pascal's wager part of that idea

Frankly, I think the whole salvation by grace idea is one of the worst ones Christianity has had, it's just as bad as the aforementioned simony. Why would someone be rewarded for believing in something without evidence? Why would someone deserve a reward for that? I've heard the argument that "true faith brings true works" but not only is that a no true Scotsman fallacy but if you look at people with "true faith" it's not even true.

Does anyone know the catholic position on this? I think they somehow avoid the problem, but I might be wrong...

[fqllve]

Does anyone know the catholic position on this? I think they somehow avoid the problem, but I might be wrong...

As far as I understand, it's that faith grants access to heaven, but sin bars it, whereas a lot of Protestants believe that grace through faith is the deciding factor. Plus there are all kinds of sacraments you have to undergo (which supposebly make you a good person), the purchasing of absolution for minor sins, as well as currying favor with saints to curry favor with God. And as for the Eastern Orthodox, from what I know their beliefs are completely different from both Roman Catholicism and Protestantism. They seem to get it right though, in that it's a reward for being a good person.

[Muz]

Meh, screw Pascal's wager. Any heaven that does not let in good heathens is not a heaven I want to be in anyways.

Also there is an equal chance of a god who would send Christians/good people to hell etc

Pfft, if you're a believer, you're automatically a good person. Hell is reserved for everyone else.

[Owlbread]

To edit a good quotation I read that is in accordance with my views on this subject; arguing about the existence of god can be like arguing about football; just as angry and passionate, but the goalposts keep moving, and one team doesn't exist.

[Osmosis Jones]

And the dudes in, like, Tenochtitlan who never even -heard- of Jesus! What, do they all go to hell? Or are they all in heaven because they never heard the Word? And if the latter, WHY DID YOU TELL THEM ABOUT JESUS?!

I believe the general approach is purgatory if they're good, hell if they're bad.

[Strife26]

That's a pretty bad litany of negative descriptions of grace by faith, Bay12.

The point of grace by faith is that, no matter how good you are, how moral you decide to try to be, at the end of the day, you're a shitbag sinner who has no chance of saving his own soul. So, the point is to act the best person you can be, with the knowledge that you're never good enough without Jesus' sacrifice. I mean, if you're going to attempt to use Apostle's Creed as a get out of hell free card, you're not being sincere about it, so it's hardly real faith.

[Descan]

So instead of it being a case of bribery, it's a case of "You're a terrible person because of something that someone six thousand years ago did." (original sin) OR "You're a terrible person because of a whole bunch of rules that no one could possibly ever follow in their entirety, and that don't actually hurt anybody." (generic sin)

[Alpha Dwarf]

Applying modern voodoo mystic here:::


The greatest argument for someone of Christian faith, broad term "kay, to continue believing as they do, is that they have been doing it all along.