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[penguinofhonor]

People seem interested in having a religious discussion, but we seem to lack a place for it right now. I like to think I burned myself out on internet religion debates in high school, so I think I can handle this.

Now, for those of you who don't know, atheism threads in the past have become huge megathreads of circular arguments and hatred. Honestly, I won't be surprised if this gets locked eventually. But let's try to have as much good discussion as we can, thanks.

Rules:

• Don't be a dick. Whether religious condemnation or atheistic condescension, we're all prone to it. Try not to do it please. No matter what your religious views, you're not enlightened. You're not smarter than everyone else.
• No flaming. Things here can get personal. If someone's not outright being a troll, step back and maybe think about it a little bit. If someone is trolling, either ignore them or PM me about it. Calling them out in the thread just makes more drama.
• If you don't understand something, feel free to ask people. Not everyone's going to understand religious views. But ask politely. Things like "How could you possibly believe that?" are breaking rule #1.
• Try to use citations wherever they're relevant. They're not required for things like personal philosophy, but bringing up links and relevant material is rarely a bad thing.
• Try not to rehash the same discussion over and over again. These arguments can get really circular, and a bit of that is inevitable but just try to avoid it if possible.
• Keep past threads out of this if possible. I know we're a small community, and I know you might recognize someone from a past thread, but it really shuts down discussion if someone posts once and they get five people going "Oh, you're that guy. I remember you. You said this dumb thing."
• No extensive goofing off. I want to keep this thread a little serious so it can stay under control more easily. A good rule of thumb is that if you're making a post solely to respond to a joke, it belongs elsewhere.
  

Feel free to make rules suggestions.

[Karlito]

Honestly, I can't really see there being any kind of useful debate that takes place here. Most of the interesting arguments on the subject have already been made by philosophers hundreds or thousands of years ago. I think a discussion of religion and religious beliefs could be potentially informative and useful, but if we approach this as a debate right from the get go I think we're gonna have a bad time.

[Hanslanda]

Yeah, a debate is a bad way to start off. No one is going to convince anyone else of anything, they're just going to piss them all off.

[SoHowAreYou]

Nothing good will come of this.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

We really don't have a new topic to discuss, and everyone basically knows the score about this by now anyway.

That said, posting to watch.

[penguinofhonor]

The title has been changed.

Nothing good will come of this.

I'm a little pessimistic too, but I'm also confident in Bay 12's ability to defy my pessimism.

[ggamer]

just wait.
The clusterfuck will happen.

lurks

[Hanslanda]

*Pokes head out of hole* We may all be hiding too stubbornly, so sure that there will be a clusterfuck, that the clusterfuck will never happen because we're all posting to watch.

[kaijyuu]

Ah, but it's great fun to philosophize. I think that's a word.

From the happy thread:

That "the obstacles have a purpose" line always depresses the fuck out of me, at least There's just too much shit that goes down that a conceivable purpose cannot exist for, unless that purpose is sadism or malevolence.

Well the "purpose" doesn't have to be benevolent. In DF, you may send beasties after your dwarves for giggles. That's a purpose. That's something the dwarves really do not like. Yet it happens.



And another thing: If you want to have a good serious look at all the possibilities, you can't limit yourself to benevolent and just deities. Maybe they don't care. Maybe they're like us playing Dwarf Fortress: the weak an infirm get the magma, and the powerful get the love and affection.
Also, you can't be human-centric. What's to say gophers aren't God's chosen species? Or maybe there isn't a chosen species, and all life is of equal weight? We put too much stock in ourselves; we might not be important enough to "deserve" benevolence.

[Leafsnail]

"Debate" implies a structure we don't have in place here.  It could be interesting to try an actual proper debate where people are assigned sides and stuff sometime but I don't think that's what we're going for here.

Rule suggestion: no posts smugly predicting how terrible the thread is going to turn out.  They spam up the thread no end.  It's acceptable to point it out after it's happened but I don't see any justification for doing it pre-emptively.

Also I'd suggest giving us a starting topic or something.

[Phantom of The Library]

Posting to watch for now, might poke my head in later.

[penguinofhonor]

Man, there was some discussion in the happy thread that was going somewhere. I'm just going to quote it all here and hope that people actually do something with it. People were talking about starting a new thread because it looked like this discussion wanted its own thread, so here you go. Post what you wanted to post but were afraid to in the happy thread.

I don't really know where to put this, so I'll put it here.

I've become an atheist. God may exist, but I don't want to worship him. I don't want to believe that assholes who are part of your religion will get to Heaven, while genuinely nice people will burn in eternal damnation just because they don't participate in your own religion. If God was really like that, he would be a complete douchebag and I would rather be with Satan. Furthermore, I have come to somewhat accept the fact of the end of existence at the point of death. It's hard to comprehend due to knowing nothing but existence, but I'm finally OK with there being no afterlife, and knowing that death means the end of everything.

I take comfort in logic, and evidence. When I hear my mother and relatives talk about religion, I realize they say contradictory things. When they talked about the death of a recent relative, they were solaced in the fact that his suffering was over, saying it was God's plan for him. Oh really? It was merciful, loving god's plan for him to suffer through 45 years of life, constantly battling addiction, and finally succumbing to alcoholism? That "serves" god's plan?

No. I'm not going to believe in that shit. I'll do what's right. Treat everyone how I want to be treated. And I'll live on. Through the memories of the people I meet, and the energy I transfer to the organisms that consume my flesh after I die, that's how I live on. Not some bullshit afterlife.

I just needed to say something. I've become sickened with religion. I have no problem with people who are nice about it, just the assholes who use religion as a tool of discrimination and hatred. And I can't believe in god anymore.

I'm just glad you are okay with nice religious people, keeping your malice towards the exploitative folk. Just try to be more specific there, you got beef with Christians. Taoists think all that is just as crazy as you do.

Except for the stuff about death (I'm still planning on attaining immortality for all humans, damn the consequences I WANT TO LIVE and I'm too moral to tell everyone else to suck it), that's basically how I feel.

Especially that first part. If God showed up tomorrow, while (most) everyone else is bent at the knee, I'd be filling a list of grievances against him with the nearest lawyer. Starting with all those "Act of God" things that have been pinned on him over the years.

Eh, I don't believe in anything though I lean more on the religious side (the whole consciousness thing continues to trip me up). Were I to wager a guess, it wouldn't be any of those fire and brimstone religions like Christianity. I'd probably go with something like Deism.

I'd probably just punch him in the face for being such a sucky god. Hurricanes, floods, hunger, HIV/AIDS, mosquitoes, extreme poverty, slavery and human trafficking, the Westboro Baptist Church...

The list goes on. What the hell, christian god?

[Kilroy the Grand]

 Matthew 6:1-34 ESV

“Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven. “Thus, when you give to the needy, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you. “And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward in you"

[Hanslanda]

I'm finding myself agreeing with Descan on the whole 'list of grievances' thing, not that it would do any good against a god. If such a thing exists. Sheesh, I'm not wanting to offend anyone, and its making it hard to say anything I believe. :/ This thread is scary.

@Kilroy: That is a god I could get behind, but as usual, we have to go with faith, and have no tangible evidence that shitty people get shitty ends. We just have to be good and hope its all good. Which is what we should do anyway.

[kaijyuu]

I'm finding myself agreeing with Descan on the whole 'list of grievances' thing, not that it would do any good against a god. If such a thing exists. Sheesh, I'm not wanting to offend anyone, and its making it hard to say anything I believe. :/ This thread is scary.

Rawr we're totally going to judge you!


Say what you believe! And if you wanna throw rocks at God, go for it. It's a potentially reasonable reaction.