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Author Topic: Atheism/Religion Discussion  (Read 184600 times)

kaijyuu

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Re: Atheism/Theology Discussion
« Reply #690 on: August 26, 2012, 01:52:35 pm »

There are so many different religions, and all those religions are separated into many branches with many views.In my eyes, that means that at least 90% of the people in the world are wrong about their religion.
If we look at probability and give each equal weight, the chance of any one religion being "right" is literally 0%. The set that contains "everything we don't know" is infinitely large.

Due to probability being funky, that doesn't mean one of them can't be right. If you've got 1 red bead, and infinite blue beads, the chance of picking any one bead at random and getting the red one is 0, but the red one still exists. And if you trust Douglas Adams, "infinitely small chances" are actually pretty likely :P


Re: Religious people being happier.

This reminds me of the ol' "ignorance is bliss" thing. There are "happy" lies. Coming to terms with true transience is a tough thing for most people, so the eternal life idea is mighty tempting, and buying into it means avoiding a LOT of worry.

Plus, religion is easy. Morality is spelled out for them (mostly). The purpose of life is spelled out for them. All the while, the rest of us are worrying about the details of what we "really" value. We don't have an arbitrary authority telling us what to do, so we're naturally a bit more stressed (especially since these are big questions).

We'd all be a bit happier if we never worried about any of this stuff and had our ideas handed to us, but most people wouldn't say that's a better existence.
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Quote from: Chesterton
For, in order that men should resist injustice, something more is necessary than that they should think injustice unpleasant. They must think injustice absurd; above all, they must think it startling. They must retain the violence of a virgin astonishment. When the pessimist looks at any infamy, it is to him, after all, only a repetition of the infamy of existence. But the optimist sees injustice as something discordant and unexpected, and it stings him into action.

MorleyDev

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Re: Atheism/Theology Discussion
« Reply #691 on: August 26, 2012, 02:13:01 pm »

You know what's funny, people say the whole "Religious People are Happier" thing but if I believed in any kind of life after death, or that this life wasn't all I'd ever get, I'd have killed myself by now. Thinking this is my one chance, there's no heaven except what I can make of my own life, is really all that kept me going through a bout of depression or two.

So no, no I don't think religious people are happier, or that I'd be happier with a religion. I think believing in that kind of thing would just make me more miserable. I don't see how believing this life to be nothing but a test makes it more meaningful, and reckon the notion utterly robs existence of any meaning. Is this all there is? I really hope so.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2012, 02:15:43 pm by MorleyDev »
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Atheism/Theology Discussion
« Reply #692 on: August 26, 2012, 02:15:25 pm »

Religious people are happy, and so are drunkards. Whether something makes you happy or not is irrelevant to it being true or actually good for you.
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
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No Gods, No Masters.

10ebbor10

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Re: Atheism/Theology Discussion
« Reply #693 on: August 26, 2012, 02:18:00 pm »

People who kill themselves go to Hell, btw. That's it, if you choose to go to believe in Hell and Heaven, which are actually rather bad concepts, because they tell people to do good to get a reward, Ie removing the doing good part from the equatation.

Jezus opposed that during his talks with the ... (Can't remember the name).

Religious people are happy, and so are drunkards. Whether something makes you happy or not is irrelevant to it being true or actually good for you.
You know, some people could take insult at that comparison.

Also, just FYI, most kinds of atheism count as a religion.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Atheism/Theology Discussion
« Reply #694 on: August 26, 2012, 02:22:19 pm »

You know, some people could take insult at that comparison.
They can take insult all they want, it is not my concern that they find offense.
Quote
Also, just FYI, most kinds of atheism count as a religion.
As much as I don't want to have this conversation yet again, no it doesn't.
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
Quote
No Gods, No Masters.

MorleyDev

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Re: Atheism/Theology Discussion
« Reply #695 on: August 26, 2012, 02:23:32 pm »

Only in Christianity, and even then what if you kill yourself in a way that did good? Or don't kill yourself but just don't fight to live? Is giving up when you have Cancer suicide? Is going into a burning building to rescue a child, expecting you won't survive, suicide? And then you have Sheol, the idea that Hell is just a life "without God"...and why would a kind and loving god punish you like that? And if god isn't kind and loving, why do they deserve worship?

Define religion:
1) The belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, esp. a personal God or gods.
2) Details of belief as taught or discussed.

Definition 1 is instantly right out. Definition 2 is arguable, but that makes things like Gravity a "belief as taught or discussed" so seems pretty irrelevant :)
« Last Edit: August 26, 2012, 02:28:55 pm by MorleyDev »
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Ship of Freaks

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Re: Atheism/Theology Discussion
« Reply #696 on: August 26, 2012, 02:29:41 pm »

re: religion makes you happy
Spoiler: tl;dr (click to show/hide)
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Siquo

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Re: Atheism/Theology Discussion
« Reply #697 on: August 26, 2012, 02:33:52 pm »

Do you have a point you're trying to make?
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10ebbor10

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Re: Atheism/Theology Discussion
« Reply #698 on: August 26, 2012, 02:35:53 pm »

Quote
Also, just FYI, most kinds of atheism count as a religion.
As much as I don't want to have this conversation yet again, no it doesn't.
Unfortunately for you, it does. It all depends on which definition of religion you want to use, and also, which kind of atheism.

Quote
Religion is a collection of cultural systems, belief systems, and worldviews that relate humanity to spirituality and, sometimes, to moral values.

Some kinds of atheism clearly fit in here.

Only in Christianity, and even then what if you kill yourself in a way that did good? Or don't kill yourself but just don't fight to live? Is giving up when you have Cancer suicide? Is going into a burning building to rescue a child, expecting you won't survive, suicide? And then you have Sheol, the idea that Hell is just a life "without God"...and why would a kind and loving god punish you like that? And if god isn't kind and loving, why do they deserve worship?

That's why you got interpretations of Christianity which basically urge you to do whenever you can*, whitout any kind of selfless goal(like getting into heaven) and while taking the risk that you yourself will get into problems for it.

*No forcing or anything
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MorleyDev

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Re: Atheism/Theology Discussion
« Reply #699 on: August 26, 2012, 02:35:57 pm »

Pretty sure it was Syphilis that drove Nietzsche insane. And surely people would rather be accidents than puppets? Accidents have no expectations, no prior demands, they have the freedom to carve their own path.

Sure, on the longest time scale you won't matter, but on a long enough time scale even the stars will die out. And last I checked, we don't live on that time scale, we never shall. We live for at most 100 short years, and even genetics will breed us entirely out of the gene pool via dilution in preciously few generations (32), those are our time scale, all we need care about is our life and what immediately follows it. Let the gods, if they exist, worry about infinite. We have now to deal with.
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Eagle_eye

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Re: Atheism/Theology Discussion
« Reply #700 on: August 26, 2012, 02:38:13 pm »

Well, depending on how consciousness works, we could very well have infinity to contend with. If it's caused by the pattern of your mind, then inevitably random chance is going to assemble your mind infinitely many times over the course of an infinite timescale.
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10ebbor10

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Re: Atheism/Theology Discussion
« Reply #701 on: August 26, 2012, 02:42:56 pm »

Pretty sure it was Syphilis that drove Nietzsche insane. And surely people would rather be accidents than puppets? Accidents have no expectations, no prior demands, they have the freedom to carve their own path.

Sure, on the longest time scale you won't matter, but on a long enough time scale even the stars will die out. And last I checked, we don't live on that time scale, we never shall. We live for at most 100 short years, and even genetics will breed us entirely out of the gene pool via dilution in preciously few generations (32), those are our time scale, all we need care about is our life and what immediately follows it. Let the gods, if they exist, worry about infinite. We have now to deal with.
People are not accidents. They are a logical reactions caused by the boundary conditions of the universe, with no real significance in the universe. In fact, in a million years, all we will be is a chemical trace on a barren planet(Due to the steady warming off the sun, not global warming).

Nevertheless, for the proper functioning off human society, we believe that free will is more than an illusion, and that our silly little lives do have some significance. Said lie is one that is automatically accepted by the human psyche, and if you explain it by a divine creator or just by not thinking about it, it doesn't really matter.

Well, depending on how consciousness works, we could very well have infinity to contend with. If it's caused by the pattern of your mind, then inevitably random chance is going to assemble your mind infinitely many times over the course of an infinite timescale.
Entropy, my friend. There's no infinitive timescale, depending on which way the universe evolves, we might be halfway towards it's end already.

Also, while space might be practically infinite, the amount of energy, and therefore mass is not. So the chance of your mind appearing twice is still extremely small.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Atheism/Theology Discussion
« Reply #702 on: August 26, 2012, 02:44:49 pm »

Quote
Religion is a collection of cultural systems, belief systems, and worldviews that relate humanity to spirituality and, sometimes, to moral values.
Some kinds of atheism clearly fit in here.
How in the world does "there isn't a god" fit into that? It is a singular point, not a collection in any sense, excluded by definition.
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
Quote
No Gods, No Masters.

Eagle_eye

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Re: Atheism/Theology Discussion
« Reply #703 on: August 26, 2012, 02:47:30 pm »

but individual particles have a non zero chance of being in any location you can name. The odds involved are mind bogglingly small, but assuming time itself doesn't cease to exist, it is inevitable that every potential organization of the universe will occur eventually. The second law of thermodynamics doesn't work when classical mechanics no longer apply.
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MorleyDev

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Re: Atheism/Theology Discussion
« Reply #704 on: August 26, 2012, 02:50:20 pm »

People are not accidents. They are a logical reactions caused by the boundary conditions of the universe, with no real significance in the universe. In fact, in a million years, all we will be is a chemical trace on a barren planet(Due to the steady warming off the sun, not global warming).

Depends upon your definition of accident. For something to be an accident it requires the actor to be capable of intent. So no, I'll grant humanity's origins as primordial ooze by definition can't be an accident because nothing capable of intent was involved to begin with. Evolution cannot hold intent, genetics act more on that scale as forces. It has no more intent than the gravity does as it pulls the object down.

Like wise, Free will doesn't exist on a macro scale. Actions stem from the boundary conditions of the universe. But for the day to day, for our lives, that doesn't ultimately matter.

It's simply a matter of the scale upon which one is viewing the universe. Ours is not sufficient a scale for this kind of thing to matter as more than an interesting thought exercise.

Still not seeing the existential horror people find in all of this.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2012, 02:53:23 pm by MorleyDev »
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