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Author Topic: Atheism/Religion Discussion  (Read 180670 times)

XXSockXX

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Re: Atheism/Religion Discussion
« Reply #1440 on: December 20, 2012, 04:22:11 pm »

Good to note that (in my experience) the bitterness and cynicism is generally absent from those who were raised areligious.

Absolutely agree. I guess people who were religious at some point and became atheists by questioning their faith have it harder, because religion helps believers cope with some hard truths:
a) life is finite and if it's over, it's over
b) on a cosmic scale existence is utterly meaningless
c) humans have relatively limited control over their own existence
Religion addresses all that, with ideas about an afterlife, a higher purpose for existence, reasons why things are how they are and the idea that on some level everything is gonna be ok.
Atheists don't have that and have to cope with these facts on their own. While that doesn't mean that you can't enjoy life and have a feeling of purpose, it can be a bit harder and more depressing, if you can't just ignore these things.


Can have something to do with one of the main arguments of certain atheists being:
Quote from: Paraphrasing
I don't believe in God because a real God wouldn't allow so much evil to exist.
That argument goes a bit more complicated: Because there is suffering in the world, god can't be almighty, allknowing and good at the same time. By logic he can only be 2 out of 3, but believers don't care about logic, so they have to point out that god works in mysterious ways or something.
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Thecard

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Re: Atheism/Religion Discussion
« Reply #1441 on: December 20, 2012, 04:28:58 pm »

Can have something to do with one of the main arguments of certain atheists being:
Quote from: Paraphrasing
I don't believe in God because a real God wouldn't allow so much evil to exist.
That argument goes a bit more complicated: Because there is suffering in the world, god can't be almighty, allknowing and good at the same time. By logic he can only be 2 out of 3, but believers don't care about logic, so they have to point out that god works in mysterious ways or something.
Those people who cause suffering, they will be judged and what they are due at that time.  A life of suffering followed by an eternity in Paradise seems pretty damn good to me.

That's kinda... y'know... the point of Jesus dying for us.
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I think the slaughter part is what made them angry.
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Those hookers aren't getting out any time soon, no matter how many fancy gadgets they have :v

MagmaMcFry

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Re: Atheism/Religion Discussion
« Reply #1442 on: December 20, 2012, 04:28:59 pm »

Good to note that (in my experience) the bitterness and cynicism is generally absent from those who were raised areligious.
Well, that's hurtful.
What do you expect? To put children into a religion and make them follow it for years, only for them to realize it was all lies from the start? It would be more strange not to be upset.
You realize that's not a civil way to talk to someone who has different beliefs, right?  Telling them they teach children lies?  And that it causes them to be cynical when they finally have their epiphany and realize they were idiots?
Being civil is not a virtue. Being honest, however, is. If people feel hurt by the truth, it just proves they're stupid.

<snip>
Those people who cause suffering, they will be judged and what they are due at that time.  A life of suffering followed by an eternity in Paradise seems pretty damn good to me.

That's kinda... y'know... the point of Jesus dying for us.

I don't get the point of Jesus dying for us. Care to elaborate?
« Last Edit: December 20, 2012, 04:31:15 pm by MagmaMcFry »
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fqllve

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Re: Atheism/Religion Discussion
« Reply #1443 on: December 20, 2012, 04:43:39 pm »

Honesty and civility aren't mutually exclusive.
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XXSockXX

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Re: Atheism/Religion Discussion
« Reply #1444 on: December 20, 2012, 04:45:05 pm »

Can have something to do with one of the main arguments of certain atheists being:
Quote from: Paraphrasing
I don't believe in God because a real God wouldn't allow so much evil to exist.
That argument goes a bit more complicated: Because there is suffering in the world, god can't be almighty, allknowing and good at the same time. By logic he can only be 2 out of 3, but believers don't care about logic, so they have to point out that god works in mysterious ways or something.
Those people who cause suffering, they will be judged and what they are due at that time.  A life of suffering followed by an eternity in Paradise seems pretty damn good to me.

That's kinda... y'know... the point of Jesus dying for us.

What has that to do with anything?
This specific argument is an argument against a god that:
- is good - so he wants to prevent suffering
- is allmighty - so he can
- is allknowing - so he knows about every occurence of suffering in past, present and future
But there is suffering in the world.
Ergo, god is good and allmighty, but does not know everything OR god knows all and could prevent suffering, but does not want to OR god is allknowing and good, but can't prevent suffering.
This is not an argument about details in Christianity, like the role of Jesus, but against a god that monotheistic religions proclaim is good, almighty and allknowing, it's also not necessarily an argument against the existence of a god.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2012, 04:46:58 pm by XXSockXX »
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10ebbor10

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Re: Atheism/Religion Discussion
« Reply #1445 on: December 20, 2012, 04:49:41 pm »

Good to note that (in my experience) the bitterness and cynicism is generally absent from those who were raised areligious.
Well, that's hurtful.
What do you expect? To put children into a religion and make them follow it for years, only for them to realize it was all lies from the start? It would be more strange not to be upset.
You realize that's not a civil way to talk to someone who has different beliefs, right?  Telling them they teach children lies?  And that it causes them to be cynical when they finally have their epiphany and realize they were idiots?
Being civil is not a virtue. Being honest, however, is. If people feel hurt by the truth, it just proves they're stupid.
Now that's a bridge to far(Hurtfull truths exist, this isn't one of them though. Not in the way it was said earlier). The original was an exesive generalisation either. Not an uncommon generalisation, but nevertheless a completely incorrect one. Plays into the atheism elitism I talked about earlier.(On one of the emotion threads I believed).

The main error made here is that all religions/ all religious people are assumed to be litteral believers (Strangely enough, this mistake is made on "our" side). Literal believers are those who believe that God, as a physical force, makes everything happen and such. (Think fundies, the gravity doesn't exist guys, those people). At that point, you're teaching people fundamentally wrong stuff, and people can become deillussioned.

To continue about this, there are roughly 4 types of believers:
-Literal atheists (Bible contains scientifically wrong fact, hence it's fundamentally and completely wrong)
-Literal theists (Science doesn't confirm with scripture, hence science is wrong)
-Not so literal theists (Aside from the literal meaning of the texts, there are other intrepretations which are "equally" valid and often more interesting)
-Not so literal atheists (Same thing about intrepretations, but doesn't want to/need to follow the [Insert religion]'s way.)

In the above example, desilusion comes from going from literal theism to literal atheism. Non literal (a) theism generally don't experience this. Going from literal atheism to not so literal (a)theism can be an eyeopening experience, and generally, you can find some interesting people in those last 2 groups. I suppose you can guess which 2 groups I agree with.

As for the problem with the paradox thingy(has a special name), I'd go with that God isn't almighty. He's not almighty in the make everyone spontanously nice to each other way, but more in a way that the message applies to everybody, not to a select few. What you do with it is your own problem.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Atheism/Religion Discussion
« Reply #1446 on: December 20, 2012, 04:55:52 pm »

You realize that's not a civil way to talk to someone who has different beliefs, right?  Telling them they teach children lies?  And that it causes them to be cynical when they finally have their epiphany and realize they were idiots?
It's not about civility. I'm just telling you why that difference is present between never religious and ex-religious atheists.
Quote
What is it that caused you to be so hateful towards religion?  Is it something you would be okay with talking about?
This is a common misconception. I am not hateful towards religion as a whole, only certain practitioners (the Taliban, for example). I disapprove of religion as a whole, but hate is reserved for those who directly harm others with their religion.

If you're looking for a horror story, you won't find one with me. My departure from Christianity was not that dramatic. But here you are:
Spoiler: Warning: Boring (click to show/hide)
Those people who cause suffering, they will be judged and what they are due at that time.  A life of suffering followed by an eternity in Paradise seems pretty damn good to me.
And if you're wrong, you will have gone all in on suffering and wasted what you had.
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
Quote
No Gods, No Masters.

XXSockXX

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Re: Atheism/Religion Discussion
« Reply #1447 on: December 20, 2012, 04:57:41 pm »

As for the problem with the paradox thingy(has a special name), I'd go with that God isn't almighty. He's not almighty in the make everyone spontanously nice to each other way, but more in a way that the message applies to everybody, not to a select few. What you do with it is your own problem.

It's called the logical problem of evil. If I would believe in a god, I would go with he is not good. Because an entity that can create a universe would probably not care about moral or our ideas of good and evil, or every tiny detail in that universe. Kinda like the mad idiot gods in Lovecraft's horror storys.
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Caz

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Re: Atheism/Religion Discussion
« Reply #1448 on: December 20, 2012, 04:59:52 pm »

I like this story of how the universe is, by Andy Weir.

Spoiler: The Egg (click to show/hide)
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Askot Bokbondeler

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Re: Atheism/Religion Discussion
« Reply #1449 on: December 20, 2012, 05:07:11 pm »

Man, I don't get why atheism has to be so intimately linked with cynicism. I'm a hardcore atheist and I think the world is an amazing and beautiful place to live. In fact, I think my beliefs make it even more astounding.

Beauty requires tragedy to exist, is it terrible and should we work against it? Of course, but a world completely without suffering, honestly, wouldn't be a very interesting world to live in.
you're lucky to live in a world that doesnt suck as much as some others. beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, and for the greater part of it's population of the world, the world sucks. atheists don't believe there's something better afterwards and sometimes it's hard to keep a cheerful spirit without some sort brain gymnastics

Thecard

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Re: Atheism/Religion Discussion
« Reply #1450 on: December 20, 2012, 05:07:31 pm »

Being civil isn't necessarily a virtue, it's just part of civility.  I admit, I can explode sometimes, but I don't mean to be rude.


And I'm going to assume you're honest, despite calling me and my reason for existence stupid.

Jesus died so we could all be forgiven for our sins and have eternal life.  But we do have to ask for it, and ask sincerely.  Through his sacrifice, we can go to Heaven if we are good people (interpretation of what that means changes from person to person, especially if you subscribe to the belief of predestination.  I don't, I think it goes against what the Bible says).

But the ones who aren't kind to others, and don't feel sorry for bad things they do?  Weeping and gnashing of teeth time.  There is a section of the Bible made up of minor prophets, and I think (don't have my Bible on hand) Habakkuk is one that explains this well.

And don't get upset with this and whine about that not being "good."  I have people use this as an argument, saying it shows how God isn't really forgiving and kind.  Those people are ones who do not repent, do not feel sorry for the bad things they do.  They might even apologize out loud, but it's how they really feel that matters.
And you find some people who really just don't feel sorry for the things they have done.


And I think God could make everyone nice if he wanted to, but then we would be artificial.  Think about it.  He's so proud that he's made us.  I mean, wouldn't you be happier with a thinking robot than with a robot that followed instructions to the letter?


Ninja'd.  As usual.

Thank you for sharing that, Hunt.  I think I can understand why you dislike some religions, and I don't blame you for that.  I don't like the Westboro or Taliban people very much at all.  I have more of a "love the sinner" mentality, but I do hate the sin.

But yeah, I suppose if this life was it, I'd be pretty screwed, huh?
That's just part of faith, I guess.  If there was no possible alternative to God, I couldn't really call it faith.
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I think the slaughter part is what made them angry.
OOC: Dachshundofdoom: This is how the world ends, not with a bang but with goddamn VUVUZELAS.
Those hookers aren't getting out any time soon, no matter how many fancy gadgets they have :v

10ebbor10

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Re: Atheism/Religion Discussion
« Reply #1451 on: December 20, 2012, 05:11:03 pm »

But yeah, I suppose if this life was it, I'd be pretty screwed, huh?

Quote from: Parafrasing certain piece of the Bible. New testament
He who wants to save his life, will lose it.

Don't follow a religion just for your fear of the afterlife. It doesn't lead to good things.
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fqllve

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Re: Atheism/Religion Discussion
« Reply #1452 on: December 20, 2012, 05:16:08 pm »

you're lucky to live in a world that doesnt suck as much as some others. beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, and for the greater part of it's population of the world, the world sucks. atheists don't believe there's something better afterwards and sometimes it's hard to keep a cheerful spirit without some sort brain gymnastics
I am an atheist, and frankly I find the idea of nothingness after death relieving. I also think it's the only thing that gives meaning to life. Heh, if I did believe in an afterlife I'd actually probably find it pretty depressing. "Welp, guess it's time to deal with eternity."

I know I'm extremely lucky to live where and when I do. Historically life has been, and is even now for a lot of people, pretty terrible. But that didn't stop them from finding beauty in the world, and arguably, in a terrible situation it's even more important to find it.
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Thecard

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Re: Atheism/Religion Discussion
« Reply #1453 on: December 20, 2012, 05:22:55 pm »

But yeah, I suppose if this life was it, I'd be pretty screwed, huh?

Quote from: Parafrasing certain piece of the Bible. New testament
He who wants to save his life, will lose it.

Don't follow a religion just for your fear of the afterlife. It doesn't lead to good things.
That would be my point.  I'm not actually afraid of death (not that I would particularly love to die today).  I was just responding to Hunt.
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I think the slaughter part is what made them angry.
OOC: Dachshundofdoom: This is how the world ends, not with a bang but with goddamn VUVUZELAS.
Those hookers aren't getting out any time soon, no matter how many fancy gadgets they have :v

XXSockXX

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Re: Atheism/Religion Discussion
« Reply #1454 on: December 20, 2012, 05:26:59 pm »

And I think God could make everyone nice if he wanted to, but then we would be artificial.

If god made you, you are sort of artificial. He could have made it so you (and everything in the world that can suffer) don't have to suffer. So either he does not know about you, does not love you or can't help you.
I said this before, believers don't follow logic, so it does not matter. But making up excuses like "suffering is necessary to get to the afterlife" is kind of pointless. If you believe something you can just admit that you believe it for no particular reason. And I don't mean that to sound rude.

Heh, if I did believe in an afterlife I'd actually probably find it pretty depressing. "Welp, guess it's time to deal with eternity."
If there is an afterlife and there's no meadhall, I'm gonna be pissed. And not in the good way.
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