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[10ebbor10]

Just a note. In Christianity, everybody has the right to forgive, or perform any of the sacraments and such. In fact; forgiviness doesn't serve to benefit the bad guy/ or to free him of his sin. It serves to free the victim of hist victimized state. To free him of the pain and loss of what was done to him.

[Thecard]

Also, I'd like to invite Thecard to a Catholic mass sometime, just because

And I'd love to go, just because. 

I'm truly sorry if I'm misrepresenting Catholicism, I'm not Catholic.  Feel free to shout it to the moon, I'm willing to accept it.  I don't know all that much about Catholicism, but I do know some, and it never seems right to me.

But don't tell me I am misrepresenting the point of Christianity.  I don't know everything, but there are some things I am sure of.  One of those things I know is that God loves me more than anyone else can.  Another thing I know is if I want forgiveness, I don't need a man to tell me I am forgiven.  I can ask it from The Lord, and he will give it to me.

I don't care if you think differently.  You're Catholic, I'm protestant, my religion is based on you being able to think differently!
But I am not misrepresenting Christianity.  Catholicism, sure.  I'm willing to admit I don't know everything about Catholicism.



I don't agree with some of the things you have said.

Last things first: Take a look at this SMBC. The point of christianity is not the idea of a personal god; the idea is that the laws that are put down are less important than not being a dick. Judaism you might call a lawyer's (no insult intended) religion: You have a set of rules to which you stick, and you're golden. Christianity - and Catholicism especially so! - is about the intent behind the laws. (Of course modern judaism contains these ideas as well, just like the Catholic church is pretty protestant nowadays, but you get my point.)

To me, Christianity is very much about a personal God.  He died an extremely painful death being tormented by the people he came to save, for me.  I don't know what part of that is impersonal.  I also don't think that Christianity is just about following the "golden rule."  I'm one of them protestants who think you enter heaven through faith as well.  There is a difference between going to church every Sunday and having real faith.

For the same reason I believe protestantism is a step back on the evolutionary ladder: Historically, reformation was necessary, but it spawned a lot of fundamentalist tendencies and made man once again powerless. Sola fide is in itself a worrying concept, and it's only made worse by the 'holier-than-thou' effects.
As for the pope: The papacy is the ultimate expression of the will to unity, of the emphasis on the communal and collective aspects of religion. Doesn't it strike you as wierd that so many claim to follow the bible but to completely different things? Having one large organization keeps small parts from straying too far away; regional differences are widespread and very much allowed, but Rome keeps the regional communities from going completely bonkers. WBBC is something that would be commpletely unthinkable; to see an example of this principle not having worked google Society of St. Pius X.

It doesn't actually strike me as weird.  God and his word speak to us differently.  I don't think God necessarily wants everyone to do the same thing.  That's why he's made us all different.
I mean, haven't you ever picked up the Bible, and opened it to any random ol' page?  I have, and I will often find a verse relevant to something I am going through at the time.  That and prayer are some of the only things that keep me going.  I've come real fucking close to just stopping, if you know what I mean.

But I strongly believe religion should not be organized.  Jesus gave no hierarchy of believers.  There is no one between me and God.  If you wish to talk to your wife, do you have to talk through a mediator?  The idea that religion must be organized goes against what I believe about Christianity.


Really, I guess my biggest beef is this: If excommunication is necessary to make sinners repent, what about the people the pope misses?  Do they get into heaven because someone performed the sacraments on them?  And the people who were forgiven.  Was Joan of Arc in purgatory until the pope admitted it was wrong to burn her at the stake?

I just believe it's a bit presumptuous to think the pope was given that authority.  The fact a man would need to have it seems to suggest God not being able to refuse someone who performed sacraments to be admitted to heaven.
Maybe some of it is just that I don't see what good the pope is.  If I do something wrong, I don't need to talk to a priest.  I need to talk to God.  If it's something I need help with, I'll see my pastor about it.  But I don't think a man could forgive me on behalf of God.  The only judges I recognize are God and those in America's courts.
What a man thinks of me doesn't matter.  Only what God thinks of me.

[Descan]

I still haven't figured out why faith is a good thing... The same old reasons, like "What separates faith in Christ the Saviour from Muhammad the Prophet from Buddha the Enlightened?" And "If it exists/has impact on the Earth/matters at all, there would be evidence." And "If God is going to be punishing me for not believing, how is that, and how is he, moral?"

[Thecard]

The same old reasons, like "What separates faith in Christ the Saviour from Muhammad the Prophet from Buddha the Enlightened?"

It's a principle of faith, really.  I couldn't explain it to you though.  Faith is just... knowing.  And it's not like knowing two and two if four because you can see it.
It just kinda defies explanation.  That's one of the defining characteristics.  One of the reasons some people don't have faith is because they can't simply believe.  It's a hard thing to do, admitting you haven't a clue why something is, but knowing for absolute certainty that it just is.

"If it exists/has impact on the Earth/matters at all, there would be evidence." And "If God is going to be punishing me for not believing, how is that, and how is he, moral?"

And I don't really think God punishes for disbelief.  Dickishness, yeah, God says unrepentant assholes will have him to answer to.  But I think God judges on a greater scale of Morality than "Christian or Non-Christian?"
Because I don't really think punishing you for having different beliefs is moral.  I mean, if you don't believe in Heaven your chances of going there decrease significantly, but that's to be expected. 

EDIT:

And that's why people are so hard on the concept of "faith". It's claiming knowledge without supporting evidence. Not even justifiably so, like with an axiom, because an axiom can be changed by pointing out inconsistencies and cognitive dissonance... faith is a trump card that defies logic.

Exactly!  It's not another branch of reasoning.  I'm not going to claim that faith is logical or wise, because it really isn't. 

[kaijyuu]

And that's why people are so hard on the concept of "faith". It's claiming knowledge without supporting evidence. Not even justifiably so, like with an axiom, because an axiom can be changed by pointing out inconsistencies and cognitive dissonance... faith is a trump card that defies logic.

[10ebbor10]

I still haven't figured out why faith is a good thing... The same old reasons, like "What separates faith in Christ the Saviour from Muhammad the Prophet from Buddha the Enlightened?" And "If it exists/has impact on the Earth/matters at all, there would be evidence." And "If God is going to be punishing me for not believing, how is that, and how is he, moral?"

Faith is too broad a concept to be judged simply, or at all. There are seriosu differences between faiths. What you do with it is what matters.

[pisskop]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I can't believe I stayed out of this for so  long.  Partly because I don't really want to chance arguement to much. . .

And that's why people are so hard on the concept of "faith". It's claiming knowledge without supporting evidence. Not even justifiably so, like with an axiom, because an axiom can be changed by pointing out inconsistencies and cognitive dissonance... faith is a trump card that defies logic.

but any educated religious individual will be able to cite a quote along the lines of challenging belief to prove faith.  You are encouraged to seek out other methods of living and judges of morality.  This provides insight and a ground for justification, as you have the tools to defend faith on a secular level as well, but choose faith. At  least in Judaism and to a lesser extent christianity.

The eastern religions allow almost total freedom in faith/belief.  The only ones who stick dogmatically without considering alternatives are playing a political game or simply not educated enough or clearly not interested in spiritual growth.

[Descan]

Wait, why does not believing mean one is going to not end up there, assuming it exists?

Having just said that he judges based on actions and intent (dickishness), not on faith, then saying "if you don't believe in heaven you're not likely to go there", that either means he DOES judge on faith, or that you believe that someone who doesn't believe is automagically immoral.

Kind of a dick move, bro.

[Scoops Novel]

 = joke. 

[Thecard]

Yeah, kinda like how the man who doesn't believe Disneyland is a real place is never going to visit.

[Scoops Novel]

Thecard, why have people born with disadvantages to everyone else? Those that get that far.

[10ebbor10]

Genetic problems probably. Maybe chemicals messing up foetal development.

Religion is not an explanation of how the world works. It's an idea of how it should work. (As in human relationships. Not abolishing gravity and stuff)

[MagmaMcFry]

Thecard, why have people born with disadvantages to everyone else? Those that get that far.

Is that even a sentence?

[pisskop]

'why are ther people born with inherent disadvantages (physical diabilities, mental handicaps, less resources, nasty childhood)?  Some don't even get far enough to truely realize the full extent f their limitations.'

Is how I read this.

[Thecard]

Thecard, why have people born with disadvantages to everyone else? Those that get that far.

Wut?  I don't... which direction are you going?

Do you mean:

Thecard, why does God have people born with disadvantages between those that get to heaven and those who don't?

When did I advocate predestination?  I don't remember doing so.
Mainly because I think predestination is a way some "Christians" place themselves above others.  I don't think there's anything I can do that you couldn't.


Or are you talking physical and mental disabilities here, instead of religious disabilities?  That makes a lot more sense, I suppose.

Thecard, why have people born with disadvantages? Those that get that aren't stillborn, that is.

Because that's not really God saying "I think I'll just web this man's feet."  That's genetics being a bitch.  There's a difference between this world and the next.  A disabled man's belief is worth no more or less than my own.  I think we are all different people, and if we both love and believe to the best of our ability, there is no difference.  I also don't think it will matter in Paradise.

Religion is not an explanation of how the world works. It's an idea of how it should work. (As in human relationships. Not abolishing gravity and stuff)

Sorta.  It's not an explanation of how this world works.  It's how this one should work, and how the next world is going to be like.
I think that's shared by most religions.  I think.