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[majikero]

What's wrong with being raised surrounded by religion? You make it sound like parents force religion into their children.

[Scoops Novel]

Later, if they ask. As for conversions? Take the example of someone one of my RE teachers knew. He was an atheist, but then he had a son and suddenly he was much more amicable to the idea of heaven. Trying to convert someone when they're not vulnerable is rather more impressive, and bear in mind the vast majority of conversions are from one religion to another. Incidentally, are you religious? If so, or if you consider yourself sufficiently knowledgeable on the subject, could you give me explanations for my points prior to this one?

[Owlbread]

Yeah... that last point? I have quite the suspicion most religious people were raised into it from a very young age. They told them that was how it was, and there wasn't an if.

I can't say about you, but in most Western countries people get to choose from themselves. Besides, it doesn't explain conversions, and such.
The rising from a very young age is something you see often in sects and such.

I was raised in a fairly non-religious background, though I was a Christian through childhood; agnostic father, atheist mother, went to church with my grandparents and brother until I realised I didn't like it. I was baptised too. I have been given the choice that you describe and I came to my own conclusions about religion - that it's nonsense. You may also see the rapidly growing number of atheists and agnostics worldwide - people who do not follow a particular religion. In my own country, going to church is rapidly becoming something for the elderly.

But yeah, ebbor, it's not that I see all people who follow organized religion as "dumb", they just don't ask questions, or they are indoctrinated. Maybe they're dumb in a certain way.

[Urist McScoopbeard]

just to put in my two cents, have you ever tried to argue against someone in CCD. (This is from my younger years of course) Frankly, children are 'forced' (I wasnt REALLY given a choice; this is obviously from my experiences and my observations of the people around me) to learn about god and christianity. The program is almost indoctrination, someone is TELLING you what is right, and you are expected to believe it. You can't officially even interpret the bible for yourself as a catholic. (Legally of course you can do whatever you please!)

You get 'de facto' choices in western culture, but what's expected of you is still expected of you. You see, children aren't given all the facts, and certainly not objectively, (not that that'd help much, they probably wouldn't understand) and are, literally, indoctrinated.

my opinion on it.


EDIT: I'd like to say this doesn't make people dumb, just effects their thoughts later on.

[Leafsnail]

That's not what I said, at all. As you might remember, I was referring to Muz's example, not to the world at large. Not everything is caused by religion. Religion can aid or try to reinforce it, but it's not like religions have a copyright on Good or Bad.

The point is that you're using a human nature argument to say that religion can never cause bad things, but also trying to claim that religion can cause good things (surely you could equally say "Human nature, people would do those good things with or without religion").  You can't have it both ways.

That's where we differentiate I suppose. There's an entire branch of science build on intrepretation of Bible/ religion and as such they've got a variety of reasons to support their mandates.

What is this entire branch of science?  Theology is not a science and I don't think many theologians claim it to be one in this day and age.

[majikero]

Have you never gone to any kind of bible reading group/session? You know, the kind where you read bible verses and talk about what that would mean?

[Urist McScoopbeard]

I'm just saying, It is officially againt Roman-Catholic policy to interpet the bible as contridictory to the church's interpretation.

[majikero]

What are they gonna do about it? Raid your home while your praying with rosaries and talking about bible stories and what lesson you learn from it?

I doubt most people don't even know about that.

[Micro102]

OK, I'm an American Atheist, and have never met another atheist who acts as you say most do.

That's a bold statement to make. I've never seen religion actually stagnate anything (aside from maybe in the US). I suspect you're just taking pot shots at Christian conservatives/traditionalists.

ummmm.... Islam? You know, the place where they take everything in their Holy book as scientific knowledge. They are taught that salt water cannot mix with fresh water, and this is all enforced by their religious government. People who speak out against it can be arrested and even executed. You think this hasn't happened in the past with other religions? You think it isn't happening now to a lessee degree? Creationists have tried to get their ideas taught in schools. If these ideas weren't shot down, how many future scientists would be spending their time trying to prove creationism? I'd rather have that cure for cancer 10 years earlier.

Says that he doesn't focus on fundamentalist intrepretations alone. Then follows with a list of why religion is bad based solely on fundamentalist fractions of religion.
Way to go to break down your own argument.

And removing religion would help. They have charities but think about the massive amount of money that is donated to the church itself. Some people spend over 30% of their income on church donations. That money could be going to hungry people.

Missionaries are helping Africans? Great. Do what nonreligious people can do, but preach to them about your religion in exchange. O, BTW, the Pope decided that Africans shouldn't use condoms, or anything that can prevent AIDS in an AIDS heavy continent. So yes, getting rid of religion would help a lot.

People give money to governements too, and it uses a lot of that to pay for it's own infrastructure. I suppose we should drop that too. The people who spend more than 30% of their income are often the highly religious, evangelists, ...

As for the Pope, it was an unlucky statement. It does fit in the Christian vision, which generally denounces sex merely for pleasure, promoting stable relations found in love, rather than the constant short unstable relations we start to see more today. But for things Pope has done, maybe you should look at the action of Pope Johannus Paulus II  who was hugely important during the anti-communist revolutions in Poland, as well as in many other countries.

Besides if religion is such a dumb, non sensical thing as everyone of you seem to see, then why are there still so many religious people. It's not like they are dumb, or indoctrinated, or anything. So why?

I didn't focus on fundamental interpretations. Someone states that religion doesn't cause stagnation in technology, I point out how it does, and is still doing so. I don't care if its only fundementalists. The fundamentalists are following the word of their holy book. The mere existance of religion creates these fundamentalists. It would be great if all these holy books were gotten rid of. But then there wouldn't be religion, there would be a horde of people with their own version of God.

The governments infrastructure includes roads, post offices, things that allow us to have the billions of people we do on earth. Religion's infrastructure has what besides its decorations, stained glass, and other luxuries? What benefits people that cannot be done without religion?

OK, some other Pope was a nice person. So what? Good people do good things, you don't need religion for that. The point I was trying to make was that with religion, people can end up doing terrrible things, thinking that it is good because some all knowing being thinks it's right.

I would love to go further on this, but I am limited to what I can do on a phone. Also, loving how some of my arguments are being ignored.

[Urist McScoopbeard]

@maj:

Agreed, the church is powerless, but the point of my words was not that you're not allowed to interpret the bible, but the way in which kids are taught about christianity.

@Micro:

Religion, is a dated and uneccesary faculty, it doesn't make sense anymore. It's a bit of a sham really, specifically catholicism, which was used to repress people back in the day (A long ass time ago of course, in the past couple hundred years they've cooled down and become the Ottoman Empire of religions).

[majikero]

Posted by: Micro102« on: Today at 02:53:33 pm »
OK, some other Pope was a nice person. So what? Good people do good things, you don't need religion for that. The point I was trying to make was that with religion, people can end up doing terrrible things, thinking that it is good because some all knowing being thinks it's right.

By that logic, you rather have many people doing terrible things, thinking they're doing good and blame other people doing good things because it's terrible to them.

It's still the same thing. Different people have different value of good and bad.

[Urist McScoopbeard]

that doesn't make sense to me, I read 'He'd rather have people doing good things, and not have people doing bad things in the name of religon calling them good things.'

[Starver]

edit: Never mind.  Well ninjaed.

[majikero]

that doesn't make sense to me, I read 'He'd rather have people doing good things, and not have people doing bad things in the name of religon calling them good things.'

Replace religion with justice and you still get the same thing. People doing bad things in the name of justice thinking it's good.

[Micro102]

that doesn't make sense to me, I read 'He'd rather have people doing good things, and not have people doing bad things in the name of religon calling them good things.'

Well, yeah. Don't see how you can read it any other way then this.