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[Marc Remillard]

Would anyone be interested in an open source Dwarf Fortress? It'd be a shameless borrowing of ideas from the original, but with extensibility in mind. Given it'd be open source, I'm not sure how to kick back to the Toad, but that's by the by. That would be a founding principle though, anything of value generated from it would get kicked back up to support the originator. I just think its too much of a great game to be hobbled by the bottleneck of one person coding. Many eyes make most bugs shallow etc.

I'm thinking of using Slick2D as the game engine - I was thinking of a JavaMonkeyEngine one with a top down view, but the modelling effort is just a killer for me. So still a 2D effort, but possibly particle emissions etc etc and all the other things that'd make it nice. Though a 3D JME one would be nice.

A lot of interesting coding challenges involved, the A* pathing I guess, multithreading for modern CPU's, mod support and hooks from the outset etc.

It's something I'd like to do as a challenge, and more so after being really frustrated with the game as it stands - I think its great, and brilliant work has been done on it, but I'd like to see an open source version where many eyes make light of any bugs, and modders can really open up, not just edit raws and work around issues.

Most of it strikes me as fairly easy (the UI with Slick and TWL), but definitely some work wrt to pathing, optimizing the 3d space etc. I wouldn't be keen on bothering with adventure mode, that's a leach and sideline that (to me) is unnecessary and would cloud the codebase. Of course, people keen on adventure mode would disagree.

The engine itself wouldn't be dwarf based though, that's fairly important - it'd be a generic sim fantasy one, where you could play the race of your choice. I'd like to add in elements like, for instance, Eve Online, where you could search out lost ruins or caves and combat the insiders for potential treasure or upgrades (procedurally generated), as well as open up the world, so you could do multiple fortresses i.e. one might specialize in building, one in military training etc.

A sense of progression would be vital too, I think that lacks in the DF current. At the moment its kind of black or white to me: to do the early stage fort, and that can be interesting, or you're safe, and from then on in its pretty boring, even with current mods.

Anyway, just musing.

[Ivefan]

Not getting into the "do it or not", but do you intend to rewrite the complex systems that Toady already made? just that i assume is a rather large task even as a cooperative project

[miauw62]

So your plan is to rewrite DF from the ground up?
Thats going to be a fuckton of work.
Also, mayby rename the thread, i read it as "operating system dwarf fortress"

[Marc Remillard]

Not getting into the "do it or not", but do you intend to rewrite the complex systems that Toady already made? just that i assume is a rather large task even as a cooperative project

I don't actually see anything that complex - admittedly there's a couple of areas, but that's the idea of an open source effort in any case - it wouldn't be isolated to one person, so in terms of 'man hours', it might take some time, but spread that among many people, or a few very competent people, its not so bad.

But yep, it'd have to be a rewrite. The c++ isn't shared and I doubt Toad is keen on open sourcing it.

In some ways I think DF is *too* complex, in that there's complexity that doesn't add to the game. Of course, that's an opinion not everyone would share.

First priority for me would be not to step on toes or take away from his livelihood. Second priority would be to be able to expand on it in a good way, which I think isn't possible at the moment.

[Marc Remillard]

So your plan is to rewrite DF from the ground up?
Thats going to be a fuckton of work.
Also, mayby rename the thread, i read it as "operating system dwarf fortress"

Fair enough, renamed. FOSS might've a better abbreviation.

Fair amount of work, yeah, but many hands make light work. I don't see anything too daunting at this stage. A few core algorithms to get very right, the rest is flavour. Modding and extensibility hooks would open it up to others digging in.

[Caz]

*waits until this thread crashes and burns* 

[Marc Remillard]

*waits until this thread crashes and burns* 

Probably not an ideal forum for it. I'd guess the want for it is, though. I think the people that really appreciate the game, would really appreciate a good coding community around it.

[freeformschooler]

Well, I'd merely like to see how far you get. Who knows? It could be cool.

[Girlinhat]

Well, you run into the issue of "If you're going to make DF, why not just play DF already?"  If you're going to make a similar game of the genre, then join the group of Towns, Gnomoria, and of course Dungeon Keeper.  But really, one of the worst marketing strategies available is to name yourself after your inspiration.  After all, you don't go to Burger King and order a "McDonald's Style With Cheese".

Also, when changing the thread title, you need to change the OP's title.

[Nelia Hawk]

Also, mayby rename the thread, i read it as "operating system dwarf fortress"

hell yeah, manic drunken tantruming dwarfes operating the system probably still works better than windows in most cases.

"Soon" in all markets
DF:OS
(might leak magma)

[Shadowlord]

I don't actually see anything that complex - admittedly there's a couple of areas, but that's the idea of an open source effort in any case - it wouldn't be isolated to one person, so in terms of 'man hours', it might take some time, but spread that among many people, or a few very competent people, its not so bad.

I point and laugh in your general direction. Somehow you seem to think there is nothing complex in DF (that you could possibly think that while simultaneously thinking that you have the ability to clone DF is almost mind-boggling, except that this is human nature), and you seem to think that it will be easy to clone everything you intend to clone while removing all the flavor and making it more generic, and that by making your clone open-source you will magically get an army of genius-level monkeys to do the coding for you, because open source = free coders, obviously. Not going to say anything about your choice of language.

P.S. You completely miss the point of DF, too. Calling adventure mode "a leach (sic) and sideline," and "unnecessary?" Oy. Saying unnecessary to you doesn't make it better since you're saying that since you don't like it there's no reason for anyone else to have it either. :V

P.P.S. This thread is going to get locked and we're all going to get banned for arguing about it, aren't we?

[Marc Remillard]

Well, you run into the issue of "If you're going to make DF, why not just play DF already?"  If you're going to make a similar game of the genre, then join the group of Towns, Gnomoria, and of course Dungeon Keeper.  But really, one of the worst marketing strategies available is to name yourself after your inspiration.  After all, you don't go to Burger King and order a "McDonald's Style With Cheese".

Also, when changing the thread title, you need to change the OP's title.

That is the whole point, and I guess what Gnomoria's creator felt too, although he needs to support a family also (although I'm not sure how much he wants modding/extensibility). The point of the open source effort would be to open up API's/hooks so people can expand on it as they will, or create fresh content as required, without having to resort to tricks like DFHack etc.

In essence, it'd be to 'generify' the engine (I know that's not a word), so you can build a bunch of rude little dwarves, but also build a kingdom of staunch humans, an erudite kingdom of swamp gnomes, a tree loving community of elves with towers of gilden trees etc. But more than that, to accelerate the AI, make battles enjoyable, and provide a sense of advancement, which I think lacks atm.

[Marc Remillard]

I don't actually see anything that complex - admittedly there's a couple of areas, but that's the idea of an open source effort in any case - it wouldn't be isolated to one person, so in terms of 'man hours', it might take some time, but spread that among many people, or a few very competent people, its not so bad.

I point and laugh in your general direction. Somehow you seem to think there is nothing complex in DF (that you could possibly think that while simultaneously thinking that you have the ability to clone DF is almost mind-boggling, except that this is human nature), and you seem to think that it will be easy to clone everything you intend to clone while removing all the flavor and making it more generic, and that by making your clone open-source you will magically get an army of genius-level monkeys to do the coding for you, because open source = free coders, obviously. Not going to say anything about your choice of language.

P.S. You completely miss the point of DF, too. Calling adventure mode "a leach (sic) and sideline," and "unnecessary?" Oy. Saying unnecessary to you doesn't make it better since you're saying that since you don't like it there's no reason for anyone else to have it either. :V

P.P.S. This thread is going to get locked and we're all going to get banned for arguing about it, aren't we?

You sound like a pleasant, well-rounded character.

[burningpet]

goblin's camp?

[Marc Remillard]

Maybe its just me, but I think an open source effort would be great.

I personally love the aspects of managing a fort (though I'd see that as opening up to multiple forts around the world), battling hostiles (would like to make the combat system different, but progressive and more manageable), and make sure that modders can flavour it as they want. Also open up other ways of interacting with the world.

I can't see anything wrong with that. There will always be people that love what DF is atm, and staunchly hate any change - fair enough. Must be countless threads and internet sites you'd rather be, if that is the case.