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Yes!

14 (93.3%)

No!

1 (6.7%)

Total Members Voted: 14

Voting closed: December 25, 2012, 01:15:00 pm

[nogoodnames]

As someone who just designed and built my first frame quarry from scratch, I have to tell you that you seem to be getting them wrong. First of all, they require a MASSIVE initial investment of time, effort and resources, and the rewards they bring are proportional to that investment. Sure you could build a quarry to mine forever and get you more stuff than you could ever use, but by the time you have enough material to build it, you probably don't have a huge need for resources anyway. When I built my quarry, it took pretty much all of my materials, plus a good deal of extra mining to build, and about a week of design and redesign, and it is certainly not capable of mining indefinitely yet. If I only wanted resources I could have just crafted a BC quarry for a fraction of the price and dumped it somewhere.
Why did I go through all the trouble of building it if not for the resources it can mine? Because frame quarries (and framecraft in general) are cool and fun to make. When I play minecraft, I don't do it to mine all the diamonds in the world and laugh at how rich I am, I do it to make cool stuff. And a big reason I play multiplayer is to show off my cool stuff and marvel at other peoples cool stuff.

I also think that if you make framecraft that much harder to obtain you'll be missing a huge opportunity for interesting PVP involving them. I would love to see aerial frame battle-platforms bombing towns from above, and also the countermeasures that get put in place to stop them.

If "AFK-mining" is really such a huge problem, why not just make World Anchors uncraftable and only available through admin stores, instead of the frame materials? That should discourage anyone wanting to abuse quarries, while still allowing people to build neat stuff with frames.

[forsaken1111]

As someone who just designed and built my first frame quarry from scratch, I have to tell you that you seem to be getting them wrong. First of all, they require a MASSIVE initial investment of time, effort and resources,

Eh, I have to disagree. The resource investment is higher than a BC quarry but they're not terribly difficult to make at all. I've made about a dozen of them now and I can probably knock a simple one together within the first 2 hours of gameplay now. If I find a bounty of diamonds right away I can just make a BC quarry to provide resources for the frame quarry. Either way, once the frame quarry is finished there is no user interaction required to gather more resources.

and the rewards they bring are proportional to that investment

The rewards are proportional to the time you leave minecraft running while you are sitting in a safe room or inside your frame contraption waiting for the 1000 cycle mining program to finish and loop.

When I built my quarry, it took pretty much all of my materials, plus a good deal of extra mining to build, and about a week of design and redesign, and it is certainly not capable of mining indefinitely yet.

I don't mean to be rude but making a frame quarry which can mine indefinitely is really quite easy. They don't require fuel, just sunlight or lava/water. Or even an enderchest based battery system.

Why did I go through all the trouble of building it if not for the resources it can mine? Because frame quarries (and framecraft in general) are cool and fun to make. When I play minecraft, I don't do it to mine all the diamonds in the world and laugh at how rich I am, I do it to make cool stuff. And a big reason I play multiplayer is to show off my cool stuff and marvel at other peoples cool stuff.

I agree completely, it is fun to show off the crazy stuff you build in multiplayer.

I also think that if you make framecraft that much harder to obtain you'll be missing a huge opportunity for interesting PVP involving them. I would love to see aerial frame battle-platforms bombing towns from above, and also the countermeasures that get put in place to stop them.

I had thought about that, and it would indeed be quite a lot of fun. That's one reason I won't be disabling frames and frame equipment. I do, however, think they should be special and rare, not knocked together on a whim and thrown into battle. It should hurt when your airship is destroyed, not feel like "Eh I'll just wait till my frame quarry digs out another 12 chunks and make two more airships whatever"

If "AFK-mining" is really such a huge problem, why not just make World Anchors uncraftable and only available through admin stores, instead of the frame materials? That should discourage anyone wanting to abuse quarries, while still allowing people to build neat stuff with frames.

An interesting solution, but all of the people who want world anchors for other legitimate purposes would then counter with "Well why not just disable frames and let us use world anchors for everything else!"

Its certainly not an easy issue. Fortunately it doesn't matter in the slightest right now because there is no 1.3.2 redpower version or bukkit port, and you can always build frame stuff on the existing server, which isn't going away. Or you could make your cool contraptions in the creative world on the new server once they're available, if you just want to show them off and test things.

I'll give it some more thought, but I won't be able to please everyone.

[The Darkling Wolf]

Also, world anchors will kind of stop existing in the 1.3.2 update.

[forsaken1111]

Also, world anchors will kind of stop existing in the 1.3.2 update.

This is news to me. Whyso?

[The Darkling Wolf]

Apparently LexManos removed the hooks for chunkloading from forge until they can be rewritten because "Most modders are too stupid to use them efficiently"

Source: CovertJaguar in Railcraft IRC.

[forsaken1111]

Apparently LexManos removed the hooks for chunkloading from forge until they can be rewritten because "Most modders are too stupid to use them efficiently"

Source: CovertJaguar in Railcraft IRC.

Oh, well there are a few chunk loaders which don't use the forge hooks iirc so they'll still be around. Also if he's so good why doesn't he just make a simple chunkloading mod doing it efficiently?

[Scelly9]

Apparently LexManos removed the hooks for chunkloading from forge until they can be rewritten because "Most modders are too stupid to use them efficiently"

Source: CovertJaguar in Railcraft IRC.

*Headdesk*
What is with minecraft modders and massive idiocy/egos?

[alway]

The main problem is, when you get to the end of the tech tree, if you aren't using frame quarries and such to get tons of materials, you really can't do much else. Megascale construction like the skycity takes vast quantities of resources; without frames quarries, it wouldn't even be in the state it is. It would be closer to a small cobble hut in the sky. If it comes down to the point where, upon getting all the tech stuff, you say to yourself 'Oh hey, to do anything else even mildly interesting, I need to mine for the next several hours,'  the very next sentence you say to yourself is likely to be 'Screw that;' followed by 'I'm bored.' *logs out*

In fact, I would say the very opposite of this:

by the time you have enough material to build it, you probably don't have a huge need for resources anyway.

By the time you have enough material to build it, your resource needs are so large that the only real alternative is to stop playing. Take for example the skycity bay doors. They are somewhere around 24x40; 12x40 each. That's a total of 960 frames. Each frame takes the equivalent of 2 ores (.5 tin, 1.5 copper), processing them 3 times (dust, bars, rp2 bars). So 1,920 ores to mine. Just for the bay doors. And that's without the covers on them; those are another couple thousand. If I had to mine those ores by hand, there would be no skycity.

[The Darkling Wolf]

And an entire skycity is the sort of thing that should be a large scale project enacted by many people, not one dude building for an afternoon.

[forsaken1111]

The main problem is, when you get to the end of the tech tree, if you aren't using frame quarries and such to get tons of materials, you really can't do much else.

But I said you will be able to get them, they'll just be expensive. If you're at the end of the tech tree then you probably have the means to get the quarry/quarries that you will need to do your megaconstructions. I'm fine with that, else I'd have banned them altogether. I just didn't want day 1 quarry day 2 quantum day 3 well I'm bored. Even at the endgame technology, it will take a lot of people working together to do these things. If you want to knock together a skycity alone with unlimited blocks just do it in the creative world, you're basically in creative mode anyway when you have frame quarries that dig out 9 whole chunks per cycle (my old one did this in my singleplayer game).

And an entire skycity is the sort of thing that should be a large scale project enacted by many people, not one dude building for an afternoon.

Exactly.

Also I think you're all overlooking the economy aspect of this server. You will be able to pay people to mine for you, or even just outright buy materials. Towns will collect a tax set by the mayor on each plot owned by players. That money can go to resources used to build new buildings.

[Sergius]

Re: frame quarries. I don't build them to go indefinitely. I turn them on, babysit them for a while until they get to magma level, manually back it up so I can water the lava, then I start going down one layer at a time repeating the process. I'm sure it's possible to have running forever but it also slows down the server, so I make sure not to leave it on if I'm not there.

Simple rules against leaving planet-eating frame quarries running on their own could work. I don't know, I assume that said "offline use" can be detected somehow in the server-side and punished, by blowing the contraption or whatever?

[forsaken1111]

Simple rules against leaving planet-eating frame quarries running on their own could work. I don't know, I assume that said "offline use" can be detected somehow in the server-side and punished, by blowing the contraption or whatever?

Well if there are no chunk loaders and I put in an anti-afk system, quarries may not be much of a problem at all.

Also why do you stop at magma? Frame quarries are entirely unaffected by magma.

[Sergius]

Simple rules against leaving planet-eating frame quarries running on their own could work. I don't know, I assume that said "offline use" can be detected somehow in the server-side and punished, by blowing the contraption or whatever?

Well if there are no chunk loaders and I put in an anti-afk system, quarries may not be much of a problem at all.

Also why do you stop at magma? Frame quarries are entirely unaffected by magma.

I don't like wasting perfectly good magma.

[forsaken1111]

Simple rules against leaving planet-eating frame quarries running on their own could work. I don't know, I assume that said "offline use" can be detected somehow in the server-side and punished, by blowing the contraption or whatever?

Well if there are no chunk loaders and I put in an anti-afk system, quarries may not be much of a problem at all.

Also why do you stop at magma? Frame quarries are entirely unaffected by magma.

I don't like wasting perfectly good magma.

So put some deployers on the bottom that drop water sources for half a second and then scoop them back up before moving down.

[forsaken1111]

Okay serious questions which are immediately relevant:

1. Does anyone know a good seed?
2. The server needs a name. I was thinking of something simple like Baycraft, or AuCraft since gold is the main currency. >.> I suck at names

Also I'm considering having players pick a profession and limiting their actions to that profession. I'm predicting that this will make everyone angry.

As an example players will have a profession (Miner, blacksmith, etc) and will be the only players who could do some actions. For instance, if I create a blacksmith profession and give them some craft skills, only blacksmith players could craft weapons, shovels, ... whatever. I'd have to work out each profession.

Then you could set up your little blacksmith's shop and sell tools, buying material from miners...

Oh god there's a plugin called beardstats. Must resist urge to make players into dwarves....