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Author Topic: SCIENCE, Gravitational waves, and the whole LIGO OST!  (Read 516408 times)

Erils

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Re: SCIENCE, the Higgs, and everything else!
« Reply #1185 on: February 17, 2014, 03:46:51 pm »

But you need to know what the visual pattern is first, and you can't do that if your only method of attaining that information for yourself is by touch.

Are you sure? Maybe we need some scientists to test that.

Although, how would we ever know the results of the test because how would a blind person describe seeing? And how would we confirm that they were "seeing?"
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Descan

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Re: SCIENCE, the Higgs, and everything else!
« Reply #1186 on: February 17, 2014, 04:10:57 pm »

And now you have arrived at my point.
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Erils

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Re: SCIENCE, the Higgs, and everything else!
« Reply #1187 on: February 17, 2014, 04:39:03 pm »

How can we be sure?

While what I have written might make it seem like we are thinking the same thing, how can we be sure that we are. How can we ever be sure, or even guess, that other people are thinking, let alone even seeing the same things as us.

For example, if I asked you what color this was: Red, you would answer red, and so would I. But how can we be sure, or even guess that we are seeing the same thing. We are both calling it Red, but perhaps I am seeing Red and have been simply taught to refer to it with the same name that you refer to Red?

In other words, are we seeing the same color? Or just calling two different colors the same name?
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Putnam

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Re: SCIENCE, the Higgs, and everything else!
« Reply #1188 on: February 17, 2014, 05:04:35 pm »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualia

stuff the universe is expanding into

No such thing. It's not expanding "into" anything.

Nope, there's no need for any force. Physics not applying is a real possibility.

Well I dunno about "not applying"
There had to be SOME force or event or ACTION to create the REACTION of the universe.
I can see physics being DIFFERENT, but it just seems weird...ok maybe its possible, but it makes my brain hurt, and not many things do that.

No there hadn't. Causality did not exist. Time did not exist. Without causality, there is no reaction or action. The universe's creation is the cause--for everything.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2014, 05:07:24 pm by Putnam »
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Il Palazzo

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Re: SCIENCE, the Higgs, and everything else!
« Reply #1189 on: February 17, 2014, 05:06:42 pm »

It's the same wavelength, so it's the same in the only sense that matters.
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Sirus

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Re: SCIENCE, the Higgs, and everything else!
« Reply #1190 on: February 17, 2014, 05:08:51 pm »

It's the same wavelength, so it's the same in the only sense that matters.
This. People might see the color differently than the norm, but the actual measurable wavelength remains unchanged and thus we have a solid frame of reference.
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Descan

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Re: SCIENCE, the Higgs, and everything else!
« Reply #1191 on: February 17, 2014, 05:26:59 pm »

Yeah. Colour is relative. There's no objective "red" beyond the wavelength. Even if what you call red, I see as what you call green, and vice versa, it doesn't -mean- anything. Colour in that sense is relative to other things of that same colour. As in, a red apple and a red rose are the same colour. It doesn't matter what that colour actually looks like to you, only that when you say "red", you mean "red as in what wavelengths apples and roses reflect commonly", so even if I see them as green, I still know what wavelength you are talking about, and can point at a third example and have you agree "Yes that is the colour I meant."
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Erils

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Re: SCIENCE, the Higgs, and everything else!
« Reply #1192 on: February 17, 2014, 05:27:15 pm »

It's the same wavelength, so it's the same in the only sense that matters.
This. People might see the color differently than the norm, but the actual measurable wavelength remains unchanged and thus we have a solid frame of reference.
That is true. I meant to be talking more along the lines of conveying experiences (such as what Descan was saying in the conversation about making a blind person see through touch) rather than what the actual color/wavelength was scientifically. I know that the wavelength is the same, I was just trying to talk about the idea of sharing actual thoughts and experiences.
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BFEL

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Re: SCIENCE, the Higgs, and everything else!
« Reply #1193 on: February 17, 2014, 05:30:40 pm »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualia

stuff the universe is expanding into

No such thing. It's not expanding "into" anything.

Nope, there's no need for any force. Physics not applying is a real possibility.

Well I dunno about "not applying"
There had to be SOME force or event or ACTION to create the REACTION of the universe.
I can see physics being DIFFERENT, but it just seems weird...ok maybe its possible, but it makes my brain hurt, and not many things do that.

No there hadn't. Causality did not exist. Time did not exist. Without causality, there is no reaction or action. The universe's creation is the cause--for everything.

I pretty much affirmed that I semi-understood this with the last sentence. Basically trying to think about it too hard HURT BRAIN. BRAIN HURT WITH HURTIES.
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Erils

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Re: SCIENCE, the Higgs, and everything else!
« Reply #1194 on: February 17, 2014, 05:42:35 pm »

-snip-

I pretty much affirmed that I semi-understood this with the last sentence. Basically trying to think about it too hard HURT BRAIN. BRAIN HURT WITH HURTIES.

That is because the human brain did not evolve to answer these questions. The human brain was meant to have logical thinking and reasoning to help humans survive. Now that surviving is easy, we use our brains for other purposes, even if they are not what our brain was designed to do. Its the human brain's limitations that prevent certain questions from being answered, because it evolved to assist in survival, and that requires thinking about the world we can observe, not possible alternate worlds (though we are able to think about these, we can't disregard certain ideas. While we might talk about the idea of a lack of causality, can you actually imagine or describe it?).
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BFEL

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Re: SCIENCE, the Higgs, and everything else!
« Reply #1195 on: February 17, 2014, 05:54:06 pm »

-snip-

I pretty much affirmed that I semi-understood this with the last sentence. Basically trying to think about it too hard HURT BRAIN. BRAIN HURT WITH HURTIES.

That is because the human brain did not evolve to answer these questions. The human brain was meant to have logical thinking and reasoning to help humans survive. Now that surviving is easy, we use our brains for other purposes, even if they are not what our brain was designed to do. Its the human brain's limitations that prevent certain questions from being answered, because it evolved to assist in survival, and that requires thinking about the world we can observe, not possible alternate worlds (though we are able to think about these, we can't disregard certain ideas. While we might talk about the idea of a lack of causality, can you actually imagine or describe it?).






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Sheb

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Re: SCIENCE, the Higgs, and everything else!
« Reply #1196 on: February 17, 2014, 07:12:50 pm »

Also the brain evolved to deal with stuff of moderate size at slow-to-moderate speed. We're just not engineered to understand relativity or quantum mechanic, because quantum mechanic is of no use hunting antelope in the african savannah.

Also, 10ebbor, a person blind from birth may very well lack all the neurons associated with colours. Nothing to stimulate.
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Helgoland

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Re: SCIENCE, the Higgs, and everything else!
« Reply #1197 on: February 17, 2014, 08:59:55 pm »

Also, 10ebbor, a person blind from birth may very well lack all the neurons associated with colours. Nothing to stimulate.
They actually don't. The brain regions associated with visual pereption show activity when the person is dreaming or given halluticogens, for example.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2014, 08:50:17 pm by Helgoland »
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alway

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Re: SCIENCE, the Higgs, and everything else!
« Reply #1198 on: February 17, 2014, 09:58:24 pm »

-snip-

I pretty much affirmed that I semi-understood this with the last sentence. Basically trying to think about it too hard HURT BRAIN. BRAIN HURT WITH HURTIES.

That is because the human brain did not evolve to answer these questions. The human brain was meant to have logical thinking and reasoning to help humans survive. Now that surviving is easy, we use our brains for other purposes, even if they are not what our brain was designed to do. Its the human brain's limitations that prevent certain questions from being answered, because it evolved to assist in survival, and that requires thinking about the world we can observe, not possible alternate worlds (though we are able to think about these, we can't disregard certain ideas. While we might talk about the idea of a lack of causality, can you actually imagine or describe it?).
I used to think this way. However, these days, I'm more inclined to say that is blatantly false. See, the brain didn't evolve to do a lot of things. Like counting, or multiplication, or flow fields in vector-spaces. And yet, to say they are out of reach is entirely silly. To say the same thing of topics like quantum mechanics, super-dimensional structures, and so on is the height of arrogance. If you look back throughout human history, the only difference between us and the humans living on the plains of Africa chasing down gazelles until they died of heat exhaustion is culture. And there is something incredibly important to realize in regards to that. Many of the topics you take for granted were in fact entirely alien to people a mere 500 years ago. To say any newly learned subject is beyond our abilities to comprehend is to infer that humans, as our knowledge and culture is today, is the absolute peak and pinnacle of anything it could possibly be in the future. I would claim that it isn't that we can't understand these things on a fundamental level; it's that we simply haven't figured out yet how to teach them effectively.

Now to imagine and describe it.
...
As for the particulars of a timeless, spaceless non-universe, the best way to think about it is by analogy. Imagine you have a simple 3d wooden block. The size and shape of the block is irrelevant for this analogy. However, imagine this block is painted in a thin banded pattern along one direction, such that when you look down it from one end, you see the repeating colors: red, orange, yellow, red, orange, yellow, ect. From the opposite side of the block, you would then clearly see the bands of colors in reverse: yellow, orange, red, yellow, orange red, ect. Just simple bands of color painted in rings around the block.

You will notice that what you see is asymmetric; the pattern seen in one direction is reversed from that seen in the other. Now, these directions represent time. The colors represent physics; or more accurately, some abstract events which occur. One color follows after another, following the law of the banded pattern's repetition (physics). Likewise, they look very similar, but also different, in opposite directions. Cause and effect are thus the reactions to the 'laws of physics,' which is to say, the repeated patterns of banding, looking down one direction. Red causes Orange, Orange causes Yellow, Yellow causes red, assuming we are looking down the first direction. So there's your universe existing in a painted block of wood.

So, now say we want to get into things outside the universe. Well, you can look at the block's rings; tracing cause and effect backwards or forwards in time. You can figure out "Red was the color of the first ring; and the last ring happened to be Orange." So what came BEFORE the first ring? What CAUSED the first Red ring? What came AFTER the last ring? What was the EFFECT of the last Orange ring? The answer is, quite obviously, that such questions are entirely pointless because nothing more can be learned from the block. You can go "Before" the block, and you can go "After" the block, but your ideas as to what should come before and after the block based on looking at the block will almost certainly be entirely inaccurate in such a weird way that it would be unthinkable based only on the knowledge gained from the block. Your block may be next to other blocks with similar bands; but which are rotated at a 90 degree angle to yours. Your block may be next to an entirely foreign thing, like a table or book. It could be floating in space. And so, to look at the block and say "something Yellow must have caused this block!" or "this block must have caused something Yellow!" is positively absurd. You might even look at the block and say to yourself "The block appears to have come from Yellow and resulted in Yellow; perhaps the block exists in a sea of Yellow, or the block will appear again After the Yellow" but even that is nothing more than speculation.

You can, in fact, stretch this analogy further if you want to bend your mind a bit, in order to think about multiple varieties of time, space, and laws of physics nested within one another. Now, imagine this universe-block is sitting on your table. Simple enough. Pointing to your left is the first Red band; to your right, the last Orange band. Thus, your banding laws, moving from red to orange to yellow to red, are travelling from a Before on the left to an After on the right. Now flip the block 90 degrees, and put it back on the table in the same spot. So now think about this. Using a time dimension orthogonal to the system of physics making up the block's banding rules, you just rotated the block's time dimension. Here's the interesting thing about this: From the perspective of the block, all physics remain the same. However, it now has, from the perspective of the time dimension determining the band color, multiple things immediately Before and After it. Before the block, you have both the empty space to the left, the table underneath, and every orientation it rotated through. After the block, you have both the empty space to the right, the empty space up above, and every orientation it rotated through. Again, this all comes back around to my previous point: Before and After become exceedingly silly propositions when dealing with time dimensions which exist as part of a universe.

So that's the basics of metaphysics implied by our knowledge of how physics works in the post-Einstein world. :P
« Last Edit: February 17, 2014, 10:20:12 pm by alway »
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lemon10

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Re: SCIENCE, the Higgs, and everything else!
« Reply #1199 on: February 17, 2014, 11:07:18 pm »

-snip-

I pretty much affirmed that I semi-understood this with the last sentence. Basically trying to think about it too hard HURT BRAIN. BRAIN HURT WITH HURTIES.

That is because the human brain did not evolve to answer these questions. The human brain was meant to have logical thinking and reasoning to help humans survive. Now that surviving is easy, we use our brains for other purposes, even if they are not what our brain was designed to do. Its the human brain's limitations that prevent certain questions from being answered, because it evolved to assist in survival, and that requires thinking about the world we can observe, not possible alternate worlds (though we are able to think about these, we can't disregard certain ideas. While we might talk about the idea of a lack of causality, can you actually imagine or describe it?).
I used to think this way. However, these days, I'm more inclined to say that is blatantly false. See, the brain didn't evolve to do a lot of things. Like counting, or multiplication, or flow fields in vector-spaces. And yet, to say they are out of reach is entirely silly. To say the same thing of topics like quantum mechanics, super-dimensional structures, and so on is the height of arrogance. If you look back throughout human history, the only difference between us and the humans living on the plains of Africa chasing down gazelles until they died of heat exhaustion is culture. And there is something incredibly important to realize in regards to that. Many of the topics you take for granted were in fact entirely alien to people a mere 500 years ago. To say any newly learned subject is beyond our abilities to comprehend is to infer that humans, as our knowledge and culture is today, is the absolute peak and pinnacle of anything it could possibly be in the future. I would claim that it isn't that we can't understand these things on a fundamental level; it's that we simply haven't figured out yet how to teach them effectively.
I have to disagree. Humans can count, and we can do higher math, and we can do similar things. But we do them exceedingly badly. It takes millions (trillions?) of times more computational power to move your hand and grab something then it takes to multiply two twenty digit numbers together. But while the first takes a fraction of a second, the second option takes minutes (while most humans are unable to do it at all, even with years spent learning math).

From extreme outliers (mostly natural savants who can do stuff like that easily in their heads) its clear that the reason for this isn't that brains are incapable of the mathematical precision needed. Some people can do things that are mentally impossible for almost everyone else in the world trivially. Its that the brain of 99.9% of people isn't designed for math more complex then adding small numbers together. It can, because being able to learn and adapt is really helpful and evolution has figured that out.
Now, that isn't to say that we can't work on and figure out the really complex stuff (with difficulty). Scientists can figure out how 4th (and higher) dimensional spaces would operate even the brain is clearly designed for 3 dimensions and less. But it gets harder and harder the farther you get from out default reality (while intuition, visualization and things like it become less and less useful).
« Last Edit: February 17, 2014, 11:10:39 pm by lemon10 »
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