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Author Topic: SCIENCE, Gravitational waves, and the whole LIGO OST!  (Read 512987 times)

10ebbor10

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Re: SCIENCE, the Higgs, and everything else!
« Reply #406 on: April 15, 2013, 01:01:50 pm »

The problem with the entire discussion is that there's to much generalization in GMO's. There's a difference between mixing traits from one variety to another (essentially upgrading breeding techniques*), and then there's the interspecies mixing ( which is a bit more dangerous**). Sometimes you see the creation of new genes (through random mixing), which are then inserted. This last is essentially artificial evolution of Fast forward and should have no severe consequences

Really genetic engineering isn t magical there are things it can t do

*Completely harmless, except that the markers used to screen the crops for succesfull mutations might encourage insecticide resistacet in other plants
** No more dangerous than adding a new species to an estabilished ecosystem however, hence depending on a case by case basis

[Updating as I read]

1. For a site criticizing someone for lacking source, they provide pretty few themselves
2. Restricting research doesn't help the lack of information
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BT varieties have inbuilt toxins, and they significantly add to the environmental load of these toxins. Initially, less spraying of chemical insecticides is required, but those in-built toxins have considerable effects on non-target species and on the environment, as demonstrated in many peer-reviewed papers
Bt toxin is produced by a near omnipresent ground bacteria, and naturally used by a lot of plants. The only possible problems are pests dieing out (unlikely), or developping resistance (back to start). So far, all supposed problems have been disproven. (AFAIK, all research was found to contain crucial errors)

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7. Lynas says that GM is "safer and more precise than conventional breeding" and that it involves the movement of just a couple of genes. That is all utter rubbish. If Lynas had done any reading at all on GM, he would know that the genetic modification of a plant is an extremely complex business, since it has to overcome the natural defensive systems of plants when confronted by alien materials inserted into their genomes. That is why so many attempts at genetic modification fail, and why scientists find it difficult to achieve stability and uniformity in new GM crops. The novel proteins or RNA in GM plants have all sorts of unpredictable knock-on effects, as any GM scientist will confirm. GM is a highly imprecise science. And GM plants containing novel proteins (and often herbicide and other residues as well) are certainly not safe, which is why they induce chronic toxic effects in the animals that are fed on them.
Depends on the type of genetic engineering. I can only say that the science advances fast, and that precise manipulation is within our capabilities, though maybe not always commercially viable. I do feel the need to mention that a failed attempt doesn't result in some utter destructive plant of doom, but almost always in a normal specimen. (or a dead one). After all, if the slightest mistake would make a plant poisonous, then normal breeding wouldn't work. Also, plants can't differentiate between alien and normal DNA. They have basic antiviral systems, as well as DNa repair, but most of those only serve to eliminate flawed specimens.
I found no proof of the Chronic toxic effects, except that one study that found that a specific rat strain(with a tendency to develop tumors, especially when overweigth), developed tumors when fed only  GM mais. (Without control group)

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8. Lynas pretends that gene flow happens all the time between unrelated species, and that it is perfectly fine. Nonsense. Gene flow on the scale involved in genetic manipulation, and at the speed required of the GM plant developers, is unique, which is why many GM varieties fail completely, and why many others are highly stressed. Thousands of GM "lines" fail to make it out of the laboratory or the greenhouse. All of the regulatory bodies worldwide know this, and this is why GM varieties are considered in law to be uniquely different from other varieties -- and why special steps need to be taken to prevent outcrossing and contamination of other farmed varieties and related wild species.
Interspecies crossing is very rare, and if these GM crops are as unstable as you make them out to be*, then it's unlikely they'll make it out of the fields. There's no reason to assume that spreading would automatically be bad. There's no reason for plants to evolve anti human. Worst that could happen is a slightly better growing wild specimen, or an insect resistant one. This should give no problems. A poisonous varient would soon die out due to both human and environemental pressure. Hybrids and several sother variants can't spread anyway, due to the formation of the genes.**

*True in the case of certain hybrid specimens
** Fun fact, Terminator type plants would be a surefire way to prevent this.


((Meh, bored. ))


« Last Edit: April 15, 2013, 01:23:02 pm by 10ebbor10 »
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: SCIENCE, the Higgs, and everything else!
« Reply #407 on: April 15, 2013, 01:05:39 pm »

** No more dangerous than adding a new species to an estabilished ecosystem however, hence depending on a case by case basis
Mind you, that can be extremely dangerous. The American South will probably never be excised of Kudzu. It still spreads massively every year. And this is a plant that evolved without a bunch of humans trying to get it to grow faster so they can make money.
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To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
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10ebbor10

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Re: SCIENCE, the Higgs, and everything else!
« Reply #408 on: April 15, 2013, 01:10:48 pm »

** No more dangerous than adding a new species to an estabilished ecosystem however, hence depending on a case by case basis
Mind you, that can be extremely dangerous. The American South will probably never be excised of Kudzu. It still spreads massively every year. And this is a plant that evolved without a bunch of humans trying to get it to grow faster so they can make money.
Yup, not going to underestimate the dangers. But just saying that GM is not intrinsically more dangerous than normal agriculture. It just get's things done way faster.
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Sheb

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Re: SCIENCE, the Higgs, and everything else!
« Reply #409 on: April 15, 2013, 03:32:38 pm »

Concerning Bt, there is the problem that that toxin is used in non-GM agriculture, notably organic agricutlure (as a bacterial spray). Now, since GM crops constantly express Bt, bugs are bound to develop resistance sooner or later (While organic farmers use it only when there is an infection, on a smaller scale, so resistance is much less likely to evolve.)

What this mean is that the spread of Bt crop is going to screw over the people using Bt as a bacterial spray while lining the GM seed companies with cash. What they're doing is basically stealing a common good.

Which is why Bt is actually the one GMO I have beef with.
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Starver

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Re: SCIENCE, the Higgs, and everything else!
« Reply #410 on: April 15, 2013, 03:43:17 pm »

Which is why Bt is actually the one GMO I have beef with.
And gravy? ;)
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10ebbor10

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Re: SCIENCE, the Higgs, and everything else!
« Reply #411 on: April 15, 2013, 03:48:46 pm »

To be fair, there are many plants which naturaly use Bt as a defense mechanism. It's not as bad as the passive adition of antibiotics to animal fodder for example. At least here you get an effective dose.

Also, because the Bt attacks the infestation while it's still starting, there's a far lower survival rate, and as such a reduced chance of survival, and/or immunity. In fact, I'm not sure that the constant impression would increase resistance rates, as the pests are only exposed to it when infesting the plan (ie, when it would be sprayed anyway).
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Sheb

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Re: SCIENCE, the Higgs, and everything else!
« Reply #412 on: April 15, 2013, 04:10:08 pm »

Well, we're talking about constant exposure rather than one-off treatment. Also, just much more Bt all around, so higher pressure to evolve resistance. The fact is that Bt is still (mostly) effective, so tu former pattern of use didn't breed resistance, whereas GMO crops are already breeding resitant insects.

Resistance is just a normal consequences of the massive use of pesticides. It's not so bad when it's a chemical pesticide someone invented ("back to square one"), but when it's a molecule that has been use by tons of farmers before, it's plain wrong.
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10ebbor10

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Re: SCIENCE, the Higgs, and everything else!
« Reply #413 on: April 16, 2013, 12:33:49 pm »

It's more of a problem with monocultures rather than something intrinsic to the GMO. In normal agriculture you have sufficient non Bt-resistant organism entering the genepool to dilute the resistance before it can get out of hand. With the large GMO monocultures, only the resistant survive, and so complete resistance evolves faster. You could try to prevent this by adding other crops, or, as I heard proposed, inserting GMO non-resistant insects into the genepool.

Resistance is just a normal consequences of the massive use of pesticides. It's not so bad when it's a chemical pesticide someone invented ("back to square one"), but when it's a molecule that has been use by tons of farmers before, it's plain wrong.
Chemical pesticides are also just molecules used by tons of farmers, but anyway. Artificial chemicals can't be used for GMO resistant plants, due to the nature of the technology.

Anyway, this is what patents should be used for. Ie, to prevent this sort of stuff.


In short, I have the feeling that the anti GMO crowd is attacking the wrong enemy, and by doing so, only contributing to the problem. The problem lies not with the technology, but in the way it's used. Ie Monocultures, sometimes untested. The many regulations prevent the kind of research that would be needed to set up an efficient GMO multiculture system, due to the enormous licensing cost. There's a reason Monsanto owns 75% of the market. They're the only ones who can afford it.
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Sheb

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Re: SCIENCE, the Higgs, and everything else!
« Reply #414 on: April 16, 2013, 12:52:04 pm »

Mostly agree with you. GMO is not incompatible with smart agriculture, no matter what the green crowd says. Although IMO, we already plucked the low-hanging fruits of classical biotech, and the real improvement is is agroecology and ecological, rather than genetic, engineering right now.

Also, Bt crops expressing the Bt toxin all the time, that's the problem. It's like feeding the whole population antibiotics all the time, you're bound to have resistance. Monsanto stole the Bt tool from the farmers that had been using it...
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10ebbor10

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Re: SCIENCE, the Higgs, and everything else!
« Reply #415 on: April 16, 2013, 01:05:47 pm »

Also, Bt crops expressing the Bt toxin all the time, that's the problem. It's like feeding the whole population antibiotics all the time, you're bound to have resistance. Monsanto stole the Bt tool from the farmers that had been using it...
I get what you mean. Technically the problem is  not expressing it all the time.* Problem is that the plant uses the same solution every time, and makes no errors. It's simply too effecient, resulting in overuseage of the thingy.

If we had, for example, a different GMO with another toxin standing between them, or even a natural product, resistance would be far less likely to develop.

*What gene it expresses only matters when there's an , after all
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alway

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Re: SCIENCE, the Higgs, and everything else!
« Reply #416 on: April 16, 2013, 02:01:11 pm »

Also, Bt crops expressing the Bt toxin all the time, that's the problem. It's like feeding the whole population antibiotics all the time, you're bound to have resistance. Monsanto stole the Bt tool from the farmers that had been using it...
I get what you mean. Technically the problem is  not expressing it all the time.* Problem is that the plant uses the same solution every time, and makes no errors. It's simply too effecient, resulting in overuseage of the thingy.

If we had, for example, a different GMO with another toxin standing between them, or even a natural product, resistance would be far less likely to develop.

*What gene it expresses only matters when there's an , after all
This. Resistances comes at a cost; it may be small or it may be large. However, the resistance will go away if the environment no longer makes it useful. If you merely ensure the environment changes sufficiently to make any resistance worth less than its cost, you don't need to worry about resistance any more.
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Osmosis Jones

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The Marx generator will produce Engels-waves which should allow the inherently unstable isotope of Leninium to undergo a rapid Stalinisation in mere trockoseconds.

olemars

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Re: SCIENCE, the Higgs, and everything else!
« Reply #418 on: April 19, 2013, 03:48:24 am »

Two rock planets in the goldilocks zone discovered in the Kepler-62 system.

http://www.nasa.gov/home/hqnews/2013/apr/HQ_13-112_Kepler_62_finding.html
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WASHINGTON -- NASA's Kepler mission has discovered two new planetary systems that include three super-Earth-size planets in the "habitable zone," the range of distance from a star where the surface temperature of an orbiting planet might be suitable for liquid water.
The Kepler-62 system has five planets; 62b, 62c, 62d, 62e and 62f. The Kepler-69 system has two planets; 69b and 69c. Kepler-62e, 62f and 69c are the super-Earth-sized planets.

Two of the newly discovered planets orbit a star smaller and cooler than the sun. Kepler-62f is only 40 percent larger than Earth, making it the exoplanet closest to the size of our planet known in the habitable zone of another star. Kepler-62f is likely to have a rocky composition. Kepler-62e, orbits on the inner edge of the habitable zone and is roughly 60 percent larger than Earth.
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Dutchling

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Re: SCIENCE, the Higgs, and everything else!
« Reply #419 on: April 19, 2013, 07:07:17 am »

posting to science
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