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Author Topic: SCIENCE, Gravitational waves, and the whole LIGO OST!  (Read 515042 times)

Sheb

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Re: SCIENCE, the Higgs, and everything else!
« Reply #1650 on: June 27, 2014, 12:43:44 pm »

I probably should know better about things like this, because I study in NRNU...

I was looking what the NRNU was on the Wiki and...



Why on earth if your logo someone punching a nuclear horse in the face?
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LordSlowpoke

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Re: SCIENCE, the Higgs, and everything else!
« Reply #1651 on: June 27, 2014, 12:53:03 pm »

it's a metaphor you идиот гайдзины
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10ebbor10

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Re: SCIENCE, the Higgs, and everything else!
« Reply #1652 on: June 27, 2014, 12:54:35 pm »

Somehow "Reactor went critical" raise all kinds of red flags in my mind. :p Still, that's pretty cool. I wonder what's the cost vs. a standard reactor.
Actually IIRC a nuclear reactor going critical means that it started working. The Bad Thing is it going prompt-critical. Then again, I don't know shit, so I need someone to whale on me here.
Critical means that there's a reaction going on. Subcritical means it's slowing down, supercritical means it's powering up.

Prompt critical" means the reaction is critical solely from the "prompt" neutrons created by fission events. Since a neutron in flight cannot be controlled by processes working at human time scales so reactors are designed to be critical with the "delayed" neutrons released by subsequent isotope decay. This type of criticality responds to control rods and the like.  So it isn't always a bad thing, but it is in all current reactor designs. In practice, this rarely happens. It happened at the SL-1 accident, and it might have happened at Chernobyl, but it probably didn't.

A nuclear warhead goes super prompt critical, which is definitely not a good thing.

Most Nuclear reactor incidents are not related to criticality though, but more often to problems with the cooling system. 

Somehow "Reactor went critical" raise all kinds of red flags in my mind. :p Still, that's pretty cool. I wonder what's the cost vs. a standard reactor.
Construction cost isn't much higher, but the problem lies mainly with fuel reprocessing. A breeder reactor can operate using nuclear waste, but that waste needs to be specially reprocessed and the presence of plutonium (which is used to fuel the actual reaction) makes it more dangerous to handle.

Breeders become the economically better option at an Uranium price of 500$/kg. Current price is 100$/kg. (This assumes equal reactor costs, IIRC). However, the ore price is almost irrelevant in final pricing. (At current prices, or accounts for about 30 cents per kwh cost. This lowers in better reactors which uses uranium more efficiently.)
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palsch

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Re: SCIENCE, the Higgs, and everything else!
« Reply #1653 on: June 27, 2014, 01:00:32 pm »

Actually IIRC a nuclear reactor going critical means that it started working. The Bad Thing is it going prompt-critical. Then again, I don't know shit, so I need someone to whale on me here.

Quick summary;

A nuclear reactor works by being a controlled chain reaction. Each atom that decays emits a number of neutrons. Each neutron has the potential to cause another atom to decay. You have more than one neutron being emitted by each decay (on average, the exact number can vary depending on the decay you are looking at), but at the same time actual interaction between emitted neutrons and other atoms is rare.

Reactors use a combination of neutron moderators (slow neutrons making them more likely to interact and trigger another decay) and neutron absorbers (do what it says on the tin) to keep the ratio of neutrons emitted to neutrons that trigger another decay at 1:1. This ratio is either described as the effective neutron multiplication factor (denoted as k) as a straight up ratio or as the reactivity. Reactivity is just k-1.

When the reactor is critical k = 1 (reactivity = 0) so each decay triggers exactly one other decay and the energy output remains constant across time. A reactor with k < 1 (negative reactivity) is sub-critical, and experiencing a reduction in energy output over time. k > 1 (positive reactivity) is supercritical and increasing in energy output.

Supercritical reactors can be dangerous, but not usually. It just means the energy output is being ramped up and is only dangerous if there are positive-feedback loops and a lack of safety measures to stop it running away entirely. Most power plants are built with some degree of negative feedback to counter such a runaway event.


Prompt-criticality is a special case of supercriticality. Basically the neutrons emitted in a nuclear decay are split into prompt (emitted immediately) and delayed (emitted seconds to minutes later). The delayed neutrons only make up ~1% of all emitted neutrons, but are useful as they effectively slow down the rate of increase of power in a supercritical reactor. Most reactors are designed to be critical only when taking into account the delayed neutrons; you still have k=1, but some of the triggered reactions happen much later than the triggering event. This slows things down enough that mechanical systems (control rods mostly) can respond and control the energy changes. A prompt-critical reactor is one where the reactor is critical through prompt neutrons alone. Now any increases in power are going to be immediate, far faster than mechanical systems can respond. This is obviously dangerous, although doesn't always mean a complete disaster.

Generally you want to keep a reactor in a delayed-critical state at all times to retain control over it. So when ramping up energy you go super-critical, but remaining in the window where it's only super-critical due to delayed neutrons. That is what makes nuclear reactors relatively slow to ramp up. You could theoretically design a reactor that uses prompt-criticality to get up to it's operating level in extremely short time, but that's going to be hard and dangerous. I think I remember reading about someone who had tried it in a simulator and in models, but strongly doubt it would ever actually be used in real life.

NB: Fast reactors don't use moderators and instead use decays that can be triggered by fast neutrons. Most notably U-238 can be transmuted into Pu-239 in this way, which is the breeding in fast breeder reactors. These events do occur in normal nuclear power plants as well, but to a much reduced degree.
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Sergarr

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Re: SCIENCE, the Higgs, and everything else!
« Reply #1654 on: June 27, 2014, 01:28:59 pm »

I probably should know better about things like this, because I study in NRNU...

I was looking what the NRNU was on the Wiki and...



Why on earth if your logo someone punching a nuclear horse in the face?
It's supposed to be a hand reigning in a nuclear horse. It's a symbolism for taming the nuclear energy from uncontrolled reaction (bombs) to industrial reactors producing electricity.
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Descan

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Re: SCIENCE, the Higgs, and everything else!
« Reply #1655 on: June 27, 2014, 01:37:46 pm »

It's still a very... Russian logo.
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Sergarr

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Re: SCIENCE, the Higgs, and everything else!
« Reply #1656 on: June 27, 2014, 03:41:30 pm »

It's still a very... Russian logo.
It's actually also in the entrance of the main building, to the left. It is set in stone, alongside with a lot of various quantum physics formulas.

Obviously it doesn't have the flag part in it.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: June 27, 2014, 03:45:45 pm by Sergarr »
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MonkeyHead

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Re: SCIENCE, the Higgs, and everything else!
« Reply #1657 on: June 27, 2014, 04:46:37 pm »

Question for the astrophysicists:

If hypothetically, one would want to cause apocalypse, by crashing the moon into the earth....

What would accomplish this most efficiently?

A) transferring mass from earth to the moon
B) transferring mass from the moon to earth
C) neither

C - neither. Slowing the orbital velocity of the moon would be desirable if that was your intended outcome, though it would break up into a ring of debris once beyond the Roche tidal limit.

lemon10

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Re: SCIENCE, the Higgs, and everything else!
« Reply #1658 on: June 27, 2014, 05:01:57 pm »

Question for the astrophysicists:

If hypothetically, one would want to cause apocalypse, by crashing the moon into the earth....

What would accomplish this most efficiently?

A) transferring mass from earth to the moon
B) transferring mass from the moon to earth
C) neither

C - neither. Slowing the orbital velocity of the moon would be desirable if that was your intended outcome, though it would break up into a ring of debris once beyond the Roche tidal limit.
Personally I think living on binary planets (eg. both planets have the same masses and functionally (not just technically) orbit around each other) would be super awesome. Not least of all because you would have a legrange point between the two planets that you could build a awesome space station at. There would be the problem of some nasty tidal forces, but it would be worth it to both orbit and be orbiting another planet the size of your own.
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"And on the fifth hour of the fifth year of the fifth era, the dread horse shall awaken, and all shall be ashes and dust before it."
« Last Edit: June 27, 2014, 05:05:31 pm by lemon10 »
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And with a mighty leap, the evil Conservative flies through the window, escaping our heroes once again!
Because the solution to not being able to control your dakka is MOAR DAKKA.

That's it. We've finally crossed over and become the nation of Da Orky Boyz.

Sheb

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Re: SCIENCE, the Higgs, and everything else!
« Reply #1659 on: June 28, 2014, 06:05:08 am »

Oh, that makes sense I guess. It's actually clearer on that stone version. Dang, I preferred my interpretation.  :P
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scrdest

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Re: SCIENCE, the Higgs, and everything else!
« Reply #1660 on: June 28, 2014, 06:10:06 am »

Oh, that makes sense I guess. It's actually clearer on that stone version. Dang, I preferred my interpretation.  :P

Eh, I think the stone version only makes it look like he speared the horse instead of punched it.
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We are doomed. It's just that whatever is going to kill us all just happens to be, from a scientific standpoint, pretty frickin' awesome.

Sheb

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Re: SCIENCE, the Higgs, and everything else!
« Reply #1661 on: June 28, 2014, 06:19:32 am »

It's still a very soviet logo in many way. But the sheer manliness of creating a nuclear reactor by punching Uranium in the face is impressive. :p

Does the nuclear horse has a name? Is it some kind of university mascot?
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Sergarr

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Re: SCIENCE, the Higgs, and everything else!
« Reply #1662 on: June 28, 2014, 07:04:12 am »

It's still a very soviet logo in many way. But the sheer manliness of creating a nuclear reactor by punching Uranium in the face is impressive. :p

Does the nuclear horse has a name? Is it some kind of university mascot?
No, not really. Although it has inspired many jokes about spherical horses in vacuum.
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LordSlowpoke

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Re: SCIENCE, the Higgs, and everything else!
« Reply #1663 on: June 28, 2014, 07:48:02 am »

you really could use to name that horse

as long as you don't name it after a specific related 2hu i mean

if you do that i will destabilize your nuclear horse in the middle of a stable
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Sergarr

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Re: SCIENCE, the Higgs, and everything else!
« Reply #1664 on: June 28, 2014, 08:13:36 am »

but she's my second favorite 2hu!  :(

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