Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 ... 8 9 [10] 11 12 ... 339

Author Topic: SCIENCE, Gravitational waves, and the whole LIGO OST!  (Read 512895 times)

alway

  • Bay Watcher
  • 🏳️‍⚧️
    • View Profile
Re: SCIENCE and the Higgs!
« Reply #135 on: July 06, 2012, 05:24:18 pm »

Mostly because "common sense" is just the brain's way of helping us to survive on a savanna. Though even Newtonian physics go against that evolved "common sense." It's why we are terrible at Kerbal Space Program and Orbiter until we learn about orbital mechanics. Our brain doesn't really have a good grasp on anything other than silly Aristotelian physics of "It goes where I point it." The farther from life on the savanna you go, the more worthless "common sense" becomes. And particle physics is pretty damn far.
Logged

Il Palazzo

  • Bay Watcher
  • And lo, the Dude did abide. And it was good.
    • View Profile
Re: SCIENCE and the Higgs!
« Reply #136 on: July 06, 2012, 05:38:44 pm »

I take comfort in the realisation that somewhere, there are aliens that can't comprehend savanna.
Logged

Lagslayer

  • Bay Watcher
  • stand-up philosopher
    • View Profile
Re: SCIENCE and the Higgs!
« Reply #137 on: July 06, 2012, 05:40:31 pm »

http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/hillis/hillis_p2.html

This explained it better than anything I've ever seen, but I'm still skeptical about the speed of light being asymptotic. I can accept requiring exponentially more energy as speed increases, but there is still one piece of the puzzle I'm still not sure about. I'm not entirely convinced that a photon has no rest mass. Or is a photon particle just so small that our instruments can't detect it, yet. I'm saying that we are dealing with extremely huge and also extremely small numbers, and our equipment might not be up to the task of measuring them properly.

As for time travel, I have never seem a theory that made a lick of sense. It always had some sort of paradox attached to it that would have destroyed everything forever ago, or has no connection to anything, having no proof but also being unchallengeable. I don't see any way I'd ever accept time travel as a possibility.

Then again, I'm a skeptic, because the world is quite often out to screw you one way or another.

I take comfort in the realisation that somewhere, there are aliens that can't comprehend savanna.
They would be eaten by lions, then we would eat the lions. FOOD CHAIN, BITCHES!

darkrider2

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: SCIENCE and the Higgs!
« Reply #138 on: July 06, 2012, 05:47:25 pm »

No matter how powerful your alien technology is, the lions will eat you because you don't know the savanna.
Logged

USEC_OFFICER

  • Bay Watcher
  • Pulls the strings and makes them ring.
    • View Profile
Re: SCIENCE and the Higgs!
« Reply #139 on: July 06, 2012, 05:48:28 pm »

No matter how powerful your alien technology is, the lions will eat you because you don't know the savanna.

And not matter how powerful your human technology is, the Gaglargalack will eat you because you don't know the Jelulik. It all balances out, see?
Logged

kaijyuu

  • Bay Watcher
  • Hrm...
    • View Profile
Re: SCIENCE and the Higgs!
« Reply #140 on: July 06, 2012, 05:55:57 pm »

This explained it better than anything I've ever seen, but I'm still skeptical about the speed of light being asymptotic. I can accept requiring exponentially more energy as speed increases, but there is still one piece of the puzzle I'm still not sure about. I'm not entirely convinced that a photon has no rest mass. Or is a photon particle just so small that our instruments can't detect it, yet. I'm saying that we are dealing with extremely huge and also extremely small numbers, and our equipment might not be up to the task of measuring them properly.
It's easier to think of photons as ripples in spacetime rather than things comprised of matter. It's an electric and magnetic field propagating itself across the universe, hence, "electromagnetic wave."
Logged
Quote from: Chesterton
For, in order that men should resist injustice, something more is necessary than that they should think injustice unpleasant. They must think injustice absurd; above all, they must think it startling. They must retain the violence of a virgin astonishment. When the pessimist looks at any infamy, it is to him, after all, only a repetition of the infamy of existence. But the optimist sees injustice as something discordant and unexpected, and it stings him into action.

Karlito

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: SCIENCE and the Higgs!
« Reply #141 on: July 06, 2012, 06:05:34 pm »

This explained it better than anything I've ever seen, but I'm still skeptical about the speed of light being asymptotic. I can accept requiring exponentially more energy as speed increases, but there is still one piece of the puzzle I'm still not sure about. I'm not entirely convinced that a photon has no rest mass. Or is a photon particle just so small that our instruments can't detect it, yet. I'm saying that we are dealing with extremely huge and also extremely small numbers, and our equipment might not be up to the task of measuring them properly.
It's easier to think of photons as ripples in spacetime rather than things comprised of matter. It's an electric and magnetic field propagating itself across the universe, hence, "electromagnetic wave."

If I might piggyback onto that, it's really only useful to think of light as discrete particles when it's interacting with electrons or something. A "photon" is simply a small amount (in fact, the smallest amount) of light energy. It's not a particle in the sense of being a tiny billiard ball that's flying through space.
Logged
This sentence contains exactly threee erors.

Starver

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: SCIENCE and the Higgs!
« Reply #142 on: July 08, 2012, 04:06:12 pm »

Imaginary time actually is a thing. http://www.hawking.org.uk/the-beginning-of-time.html
Not as silly as you thought, heh. :)
[snip]

Not read the lecture (will do, not enough time, right now), not actually seen that aspect of Hawking's theorising, either, but this seems to be very much the same as my boundless-yet-finite idea of the the Universe.

The question "What happened before the big bang" seems to be best riposted by "What's north of the North Pole".  And so I envisage the universe as (perhaps) being spherical (at least topoligically, if not precisely).

I tend to go for "latitude is time, longitude is space (representing all space dimensions, perhaps in some hyperspherical way)", or some similar analogy, for all points of space-time appearing on the surface of the 'sphere', but you could also take the pole-to-pole axial vector as time.  Either way, each pole[1] is a limit to 'real' time (it'd be imaginary, in the mathematical sense, if you tried to extend beyond that) but technically still continuous in many ways...

Also may explain "expansion", in terms of the Universe, or at least the 'sphere' could be shaped to work with the observed expansion (see also footnote, for unending expansion).


Although, when I say "explain", it's more a possible solution, out of many.  Anyway, sounds like I've been roughly on the same lines as Hawking, which is an unlooked for plus point to my armchair-theorising, but I hardly thing I was ever the first to independently think of it.  And it's highly unlikely that I'm close enough to either reality or any highly-respected theorist's reality to ignore some minor logical niggles. ;)


[1] Or, for an unbounded universe at +t, but still having an origin time, it could be bell-like, instead of spherical.  And thus no longer finite (although perhaps the membrane being drawn 'thinner', thus being finite in some other measure).

Logged

Starver

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: SCIENCE and the Higgs!
« Reply #143 on: July 08, 2012, 04:25:48 pm »

As for time travel, I have never seem a theory that made a lick of sense. It always had some sort of paradox attached to it that would have destroyed everything forever ago, or has no connection to anything, having no proof but also being unchallengeable. I don't see any way I'd ever accept time travel as a possibility.

Among many other ways that apparent paradoxes can result in stability, there's the whole thing about snooker/billiard balls on a table with a handy wormhole on it.

If you have a trick-shot set up so that a ball goes through a hole-to-the-past, ensuring that it has already exited from the hole-from-the-future and on a trajectory that deflects its old self, then obviously there's huge problems.  But you could have initially-cued ball set off on a trajectory whereby it would normally miss the entryway to the time-loop, but then its future self appears anyway and deflects it into the path that allows it to even deflect it...

In one possible view of a universe with prevalent time-loops, it would be a matter of only universes (out of the infinite myriad of trivially possible ones) in which stability occurs[1] is valid and ever becomes 'experienced'.  Like in universe represented in the film Twelve Monkeys...


But there are so many other ways to imagine time travel as being possible, many of which have also been used in films.  The only representation that I would out-and-out suggest is completely 'wrong' is the "Incredible Fading Marty McFly" concept in Back To The Future, and all similar "all changes are visible in transition, especially to oneself!" versions.



[1] Where there's no opportunity for temporal interference, or where the interference is inconsequential, or where the interference is vital to the continuity, as in the above example...
Logged

Lagslayer

  • Bay Watcher
  • stand-up philosopher
    • View Profile
Re: SCIENCE and the Higgs!
« Reply #144 on: July 08, 2012, 04:48:10 pm »

Way I figure, if you can create a stable time loop, then an unstable one must also be possible. The latter would completely fuck up everything, forever, and in an infinite universe, probability states that it would have already happened, many many times, assuming the first one didn't destroy everything for some reason.

quinnr

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: SCIENCE and the Higgs!
« Reply #145 on: July 08, 2012, 04:53:59 pm »

So now all we've got to do is to put a couple of grannies into the LHC and smash them against each other at relativistic speeds. Lather, rinse, repeat until we got results.

Well, if that's not worth a quote, I don't know what is.
Logged
To exist or not exist, that is the query. For whether it is more optimal of the CPU to endure the viruses and spam of outragous fortune, or to something something something.

Gizogin

  • Bay Watcher
  • [EVIL][RAWMANCER]
    • View Profile
Re: SCIENCE and the Higgs!
« Reply #146 on: July 08, 2012, 05:06:20 pm »

-snip-

This has always been my interpretation of time-travel as well.  The only way you'd be able (not allowed, but physically able) to alter the past would be in such a way that your alterations are completely self-affirming.  The billiard ball example is wonderful because you don't have to deal with "choice" or "free will."  The only way the billiard ball can go through back in time is if its actions there do not prevent it from traveling into the past in exactly the same manner.
Logged
Quote from: franti
"Let's expose our military to zombie-dust so they can't feel pain. They don't NEED skin."
Quote from: Ipwnurmom221
One FB post. Many dick jokes. Pokemon. !!VOLCANO!!. Dwarven mood thingee. Derailment itself. Girlinhat's hat. Cuba. Karl Marx. This is why i love Bay12 forums.
The rest of my sig.
Fear the fluffballs

Phmcw

  • Bay Watcher
  • Damn max 500 characters
    • View Profile
Re: SCIENCE and the Higgs!
« Reply #147 on: July 08, 2012, 05:32:02 pm »

Anyway, anything surprising, or is everything conform to the theory and everyone weep?
Logged
Quote from: toady

In bug news, the zombies in a necromancer's tower became suspicious after the necromancer failed to age and he fled into the hills.

Starver

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: SCIENCE and the Higgs!
« Reply #148 on: July 08, 2012, 05:39:59 pm »

Way I figure, if you can create a stable time loop, then an unstable one must also be possible. The latter would completely fuck up everything, forever, and in an infinite universe, probability states that it would have already happened, many many times, assuming the first one didn't destroy everything for some reason.

Try it this way: You don't create a time-loop.  You are merely the bit of the universe that creates said time-loop.  The entire universe that creates the you that creates the unstable time-loop is non-valid.  It's a bit like trying to justify the (hypothetical) chances that your grandma from the Titanic survived to meet the handsome midshipman on the rescue ship who was your grandfather.  They did, thus you exist.  Had they not, you would not have been around to ask the question.  But in an even more meta-chronological basis.

Or...  look at a woven tapestry, where some of the longitudinal threads loop round and displace earlier threads...  Looked at from 'outside the tapestry', the loops in shove the threads around to define whatever threads need to loop out.  As far as we are concerned, it's a valid tapestry if the threads aren't broken.  Live in the tapestry, being a thread, and you experience everything 'happening' around you as the threads are woven in and out of one another and occasionally a loop-back interfaces with you, and then some thread (you, or something/someone else's) exits to be that loop.  In a view of 'tapestry time' it's coincidental that it's self-fulfilling prophecy/action/'interference'.  From the external observer, that's just the way it is.  (There may be many other 'valid' tapestries out there, and the ones that aren't are never 'exhibited', for no-one to experience[1]).  Leaving you with something like the questions involved in the weak-anthropic principle.  The answer: you're here because things worked out.  You would not have been if they had not.

(In a more mundane, non-timeloop set of examples: Grandma got picked up by a different rescue ship; Grandma did not survive the Titanic; Grandma was never on the Titanic, in the first place; Grandma was born a boy; Grandma never existed at all, for other historic reasons.  The relationship of the electroweak force to the Planck Constant (...whatever, could be anything!) meant that matter could not condense in the first place out of the Gluon-Gluon soup (...again, whatever) and there were never any stars and planets in the first place to allow... well, it all to happen in any way that led to your existence.)


And, like I said, this is but one among many possible 'solutions'.  Re-branching at each 'poke from the future' intersection of reality is another.  As we don't have any idea what the 'metaverse' looks like (heck, we're still trying to get an idea of the basic tennets of the bubble that is our own Universe...) right now it's an open question.


I tend to go with it being a whole lot of bubbles.  Multidimensional bubbles.  The surface of each bubble represents space-time for the universe it represents (see also my "latitude is time" post, but that may not be necessary), and in the metaverse the bubbles... exist.  Perhaps all the ones with fatal flaws in their structure popped, ages ago, but not in our variety of time.  I've no idea if the bubbles ever 'link up', or even form a foam.  I'm already out on a limb with the basic concept of at least one bubble being visible (from whatever viewpoint one might imagine exists not being restricted to being just within a bubble) in the entirety of existence.  I could not, in good faith tell you that even this is 'reality'.  But it would work.  And it would (IMO) be elegant, which in the absence of any other cues always seems to work when it comes to these sorts of theories.  Or at least better highlights when there's a fatal blemish. ;)



[1] If you insist, then the ones with broken-threads, or with utterly 'impossible' interactions in them might still be 'lived' by tapestry-thread-beings who find themselves regularly shoved over by temporal anomalies, see impossible interactions (where discontinuities in the structure are observed from the non-tapestry POV, disobeying the basic rules of tapestry weaving for the sake of accommodating loops, or of denying loops that should have occurred by the particular rules of tapestry-weaving but that just cannot be patched back into the 'prior' material, for whatever reason).  But I prefer to imagine that there is 'life' only in the tapestries that have been produced by the metaverses weavers where the consistencies resolve.
Logged

Starver

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: SCIENCE and the Higgs!
« Reply #149 on: July 08, 2012, 06:27:04 pm »

-snip-

This has always been my interpretation of time-travel as well.  The only way you'd be able (not allowed, but physically able) to alter the past would be in such a way that your alterations are completely self-affirming.  The billiard ball example is wonderful because you don't have to deal with "choice" or "free will."  The only way the billiard ball can go through back in time is if its actions there do not prevent it from traveling into the past in exactly the same manner.
To play Devil's Advocate against my own stated POV, this does present problems with the "only happened it because it happened" time-loops.  Why did we not have an undeflected, non-timetravelling ball that avoided the possibility of creating the loop and was happy to just miss the opportunity to set up its own future?

(Of course, it may be that the undeflected ball is destined to then enter a different time-gate-thingy that would send it back through a different time-gate-exit and create the paradox, so the only 'valid' universe is the one where the reinforcing loop must exist, to prevent the destructive one being attempted.  Alternatively, perhaps we have a reinforces-the-non-paradoxical-loop universe and also an entire second version of the universe with the doesn't-mess-with-its-own-consequences timeline.)



But, hey, it's still uncertain (for me, at least) as to whether we're in a deterministic universe or not...  I think we are[1].  But if we're not, then maybe there's wiggle-room.  The classically-inspired bullet intended for grandpa (at a time before he goes to sea, right?) could have been buffeted any which way as you try to snipe him, and... whadya know... it missed, and you didn't cause the paradox you thought might have occurred.  (Or the deterministic universe always determined you would miss, which takes us back to the top line of everything being a self-sustaining causality, especially if a near miss from an unidentified assassin's bullet actually persuaded grandpappy to get onto a ship!)


It's fun this speculation.  And (with any of the information that anyone in this thread can provide, including me) is pretty much just that...  Speculative.

Disclaimer: I have never had (nor do I think I shall forseeably ever have had, at some point following some future unforeseen opportunity to remold time through any paradox-proof mechanisms) any direct ancestors on, or associated with, the Titanic.  Any claims to the contrary are fictional.  Unless a future-future self happens to persuade my future-self that it is essential that my future-plus-a-bit self go back in time to pose as... ooh, Idunno...  a travel agent and/or a careers adviser... in order to engineer the circumstances that ensure my own existence, and then an adoption agent to disguise from my present-self these self-same circumstances.  But I have to be definite about this...  If future-future-self hands future-self an iceburg-creating-raygun-thingy, I foresee my (singularly) future self being rather torn up with some pretty large issues of existential doubt.  Maybe I should also take back a whole load of minisubs, equipped with resuscitation gear and anti-hypothermia medical supplies, and find somewhere I can stash those that I can reasonably rescue.  After all, when it comes to time-travel, it is inevitable that I should plan ahead!


[1] As, of course, I was always destined to be... given all preceding conditions in the universe inevitably leading to this state of affairs!
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 8 9 [10] 11 12 ... 339