Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 ... 5 6 [7] 8 9 ... 19

Author Topic: EU Rules in favour of reselling digital downloads.  (Read 45376 times)

fenrif

  • Bay Watcher
  • Dare to be stupid.
    • View Profile
Re: EU Rules in favour of reselling digital downloads.
« Reply #90 on: July 05, 2012, 09:56:20 am »

This is actually a very good point.

When pants deteriorate, they lose value because no one else wants to pay as much for deteriorated pants. We look at them and go "hmmm, they look like crap, I do not want to purchase them" and thus our preception of their value goes down.

When a game becomes old, it too deteriorates. We look at them and go "hmmm, they look like crap, I do not want to purchase them" and thus our preception of their value goes down.

The same mechanic is at work here, make sure not to confuse physical condition directly with monetery value.
To be more precise, the issue is the lack of incentive to buy from the distribution service instead of a used copy. For most products you lose something when you buy it from another person instead of the retailer. Digitally distributed software on the other hand, buying an already existing license gets you the exactly same thing as buying an original copy. It doesn't matter what the "intrinsic value" or whatever you want to call it reduces over the time, as it reduces the same amount from both the used and new copies. A better metaphor for this kind of appreciation could possibly be something going out of fashion.

If I buy a chair from my friend, I get a chair. Same as if I buy from a shop. If I buy a DVD from a used DVD shop, I get a DVD. Same as if I bought from a new-DVD shop.

I mean sure, you can buy a second hand POS broken down chair that's missing a leg, or a scratched up DVD that doesn't play. But that's just as likely as buying a DVD that's been kept by a fastidious neat freak and is in perfect condition, or a chair kept by a carpenter who has repaired any damage with perfect accuracy to the original chair. You'll pay more for a chair with all four legs in mint condition than a broken unusable chair, but still not as much as buying one new.

I'll agree that there's a chance that you can buy something second hand and lose something, which isn't present with digital media, but it's not a garuantee. Between me and my immediate friends we've probobly bought hundreds of second hand DVDs from a highstreet shop in the UK called CEX. I think one of them didn't play. The rest were all basically the same as buying a brand new DVD.

There's definatly a lack of incentive though, because second hand things are generally cheaper. This is because, regardless of the quality of the actual item, not being the first person to own something has a psychological component that makes people think it's worth slightly less (there's probobly a whole lot more to it than that, like generally second hand items are sold at a point where the particular item is out of fasion/date/etc, but you see my point). But this isn't a bad thing. It's infact one of the basic tenents of capitalism. I mean why buy a new chair when you can buy one brand new? You don't see furnature manufacturers complaining because people are buying their chairs for 100 pounds and then selling them on for 70. Infact most industries deal with problems like this, but for some reason the video games industry has decided that it shouldn't have to deal with buisness problems that have faced every other salesman since the dawn of time.

If you walk into any video game shop you'll generally see huge sections of  the shelving taken up by used games. My local game has way more used PS3 games than new, and they're generally far far cheaper, with a difference of £20 easily. They also usaully have buy 3 get one free offers, or 2 for the price of 1 liberally applied. But people still buy new games. The incentive is to buy used, you get more games for the same amount of money, you know what games are good because they've been out a while and the reviews are plentifull, and they'll probobly have all the annoying launch day bugs patched out, DLC (if thats you thing) will be ready and waiting on your online store of choice. But the thing is... video games are entertainment. They aren't something you purchase primarily based on value, but on personal preference. Someone who is a huge FIFA fan isn't going to go on release day for FIFA 2013 and buy last years game because it's £30 cheaper. It's the same reason why people who are into movies pay £10 to sit in a crowded theater and listen to people talking over the movie to see the latest blockbuster on release, instead of waiting a few months and buying the DVD for £10 so they can watch it whenever they want in the comfort of their own home. Entertainment doesn't really follow the same rules as necessities or furnature or clothing (well it can I guess if that's your hobby).
Logged

Shadowlord

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: EU Rules in favour of reselling digital downloads.
« Reply #91 on: July 05, 2012, 10:03:56 am »

Every used game I get from Best Buy smells like dishsoap (scented, no less) when I open it up.
Logged
<Dakkan> There are human laws, and then there are laws of physics. I don't bike in the city because of the second.
Dwarf Fortress Map Archive

Aklyon

  • Bay Watcher
  • Fate~
    • View Profile
Re: EU Rules in favour of reselling digital downloads.
« Reply #92 on: July 05, 2012, 10:15:57 am »

*Prays US rules similarly in days ahead*
Punchout the MAFIAA and the USTR, and you might have a chance.
Logged
Crystalline (SG)
Sigtext
Quote from: RedKing
It's known as the Oppai-Kaiju effect. The islands of Japan generate a sort anti-gravity field, which allows breasts to behave as if in microgravity. It's also what allows Godzilla and friends to become 50 stories tall, and lets ninjas run up the side of a skyscraper.

fenrif

  • Bay Watcher
  • Dare to be stupid.
    • View Profile
Re: EU Rules in favour of reselling digital downloads.
« Reply #93 on: July 05, 2012, 10:18:45 am »

Every used game I get from Best Buy smells like dishsoap (scented, no less) when I open it up.

Imagine what it smelled like before the dishsoap?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Logged

Leafsnail

  • Bay Watcher
  • A single snail can make a world go extinct.
    • View Profile
Re: EU Rules in favour of reselling digital downloads.
« Reply #94 on: July 05, 2012, 10:32:00 am »

The fact that they can't prohibit it doesn't mean they need to facilitate it, surely.  Like the fact that I can resell a chair I buy from a shop doesn't mean they have to provide a messageboard for me to find potential buyers of my chair.  I don't think it'd force Steam to enact trading of games between people.

Copy protection is possibly a bit more affected by the ruling, though - it'd prevent you from reselling the product altogether.
Logged

GlyphGryph

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: EU Rules in favour of reselling digital downloads.
« Reply #95 on: July 05, 2012, 10:32:43 am »

At the very least I think it would allow selling of steam accounts (and the games that go with them), though.
Logged

Leafsnail

  • Bay Watcher
  • A single snail can make a world go extinct.
    • View Profile
Re: EU Rules in favour of reselling digital downloads.
« Reply #96 on: July 05, 2012, 10:35:56 am »

Really?  I'm pretty sure the Steam account in itself is a service.  It's certainly not a product you buy, so there'd probably need to be another ruling.
Logged

Rez

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: EU Rules in favour of reselling digital downloads.
« Reply #97 on: July 05, 2012, 10:45:05 am »

in@ steam dropping service to the EU

At the very least, Valve will have to accept a grey market for games purchased through steams, but since there isn't a mechanism for transferring activated games, such a grey market will entail the sale of accounts.  So Gaben is probably going to be a little pissed over this, since as soon as someone wants they'll bring suit against Valve for failing to design their system so that second hand trading is expedited.

You can't sell individual games that have been activated in steam.  Your access to the program is through an account that is associated with your other games.  The system de facto locks software to an account, so if people want to trade their steam games, they'll be able to get a ruling that forces Valve to rework Steam.
Logged

fenrif

  • Bay Watcher
  • Dare to be stupid.
    • View Profile
Re: EU Rules in favour of reselling digital downloads.
« Reply #98 on: July 05, 2012, 10:54:58 am »

The most likely thing is that they'll just allow you to sell steam accounts (you could always do it I guess, but they specifically banned it in the TOS). Since it means they don't actually have to change anything, and it seems like it'd work within the ruling. That and stop their stupid ban on people paying friends in other regions to buy games for them at cheaper rates, or to get around censorship laws and the like.

The problem is that as far as I can remember, Steam explicitly refers to every game you activate as a license, which is what this ruling specifically deals with. So I guess it could be interpreted that you should be allowed to sell each individual game seperately?

Steam wont just stop service to the EU. That'd be like EA closing down buisness over the ME3 ending fiasco. Multi-million dollar companies don't, as a general rule, cut off huge swathes of their revenue streams out of spite. Especially when Steam probobly doesn't really care if you trade games around, since they take a cut of every sale anyway, and people who are on steam will generally buy more games. I seem to remember valve games being a bit more free with the whole trading and sharing games anyway? If you buy a bundle of valve games, and you allready own one, cant you gift that game seperatly, which doesnt apply to big publisher games?

I think this is going to be far more of a sticking point for the publishers that use steam than steam itself.

Logged

BigD145

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: EU Rules in favour of reselling digital downloads.
« Reply #99 on: July 05, 2012, 10:59:04 am »

*Prays US rules similarly in days ahead*

Heck no. They can't even get the Precautionary Principle up and running and that matters a hell of a lot more than any game copyright issues.

US- "Make companies prove their chemicals don't kill or maim citizens? LOL. Let companies do whatever they want."
Logged

Aklyon

  • Bay Watcher
  • Fate~
    • View Profile
Re: EU Rules in favour of reselling digital downloads.
« Reply #100 on: July 05, 2012, 11:00:41 am »

US- "Make companies prove their chemicals don't kill or maim citizens? LOL. Let companies that pay us do whatever they want."
Logged
Crystalline (SG)
Sigtext
Quote from: RedKing
It's known as the Oppai-Kaiju effect. The islands of Japan generate a sort anti-gravity field, which allows breasts to behave as if in microgravity. It's also what allows Godzilla and friends to become 50 stories tall, and lets ninjas run up the side of a skyscraper.

Goron

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: EU Rules in favour of reselling digital downloads.
« Reply #101 on: July 05, 2012, 11:01:08 am »


Steam wont just stop service to the EU.
Yeah, companies tend not to cut 100% of a revenue source voluntarily in response to an externally forced cut in revenue... I would rather take a pay cut but stay employed than be unemployed...

Rez

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: EU Rules in favour of reselling digital downloads.
« Reply #102 on: July 05, 2012, 11:04:25 am »

'Twas a joke.

And yes, the ruling has to do with licensing.  There are a couple ways that software is licensed and owned, but the one that's important in this context puts sole ownership of the software in the copyrighter.  You don't own the software or the code.  You license the right to run it in the case of most commercial software.
Logged

fenrif

  • Bay Watcher
  • Dare to be stupid.
    • View Profile
Re: EU Rules in favour of reselling digital downloads.
« Reply #103 on: July 05, 2012, 11:19:23 am »

'Twas a joke.

And yes, the ruling has to do with licensing.  There are a couple ways that software is licensed and owned, but the one that's important in this context puts sole ownership of the software in the copyrighter.  You don't own the software or the code.  You license the right to run it in the case of most commercial software.

Except that the video game industry almost entirely doesn't operate this way. Though they like to pretend they do when noone's paying attention. With the notable exception of MMOs maybe? Even then I think you still own the client itself.

And just to expand on why Steam wont just take their ball and go home: I think if steam pulled out of the EU entirely any EU customer would either sue them, due to not being able to access their games, or demand they honour their age old assurance that if the service stopped they'd provide download links for all games on your list. Second a competitor would step in, offer their service with the trading and selling functionality, and instantly be able to challenge Steam due to having a huge untapped userbase.

Then I imagine Steam would start losing customers, since there'd be a new (or updated if it was Desura or Origin or whatever) service, with better features. People would have friends on both, and one of them would let you trade games and sell them, so I imagine it'd be a gradual shift away from Steam. Not only would Steam be (I dunno what the steam users breakdown is so lets say) half it's own userbase, but it'd also then create a new competitor which would inherantly have better functionality than steam. It'd be suicide in so many ways. Their economist would be in tears.

I know you were joking Rez, but I'm pretty sure others in the thread have seriously suggested that this would be a possible outcome. :P
Logged

Duuvian

  • Bay Watcher
  • Internet ≠ Real Life
    • View Profile
Re: EU Rules in favour of reselling digital downloads.
« Reply #104 on: July 05, 2012, 11:32:30 am »

Well this is news. It seems like a good thing to me I suppose. I think Steam will probably adjust their practices to abide by the law instead of fighting it. That would be my recommendation to them anyhow. It will ultimately cost them some sales on aging games as they are resold by previous owners but by being benevolent they don't seem not benevolent. In addition I doubt it would effect new release sales barring premature sales.

As for steam sales; I don't think it'll be too harmful. They have sales anyways currently; and with this buyers receive even more value due to resale from a purchase for the initial release and when prices are high Steam would make the same or possibly greater sales, though not for this reason (see below). As a consequence Steam would probably lose a small number of sales on already released games.

However a benefit of this is that the game reaches a new 'consumer' after every resale who will then theoretically both learn of Steam themselves, and in addition offers the possibility of them telling their friends of their own free will. Then that person can sell the game again and it continues. It's essentially free marketing.

A question to ask would be whether Steam can put some sort of 'stamp' on it's products. I'd assume yes and if so it's actually a great boon for Steam in the long run.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2012, 12:45:43 pm by Duuvian »
Logged
FINISHED original composition:
https://app.box.com/s/jq526ppvri67astrc23bwvgrkxaicedj

Sort of finished and awaiting remix due to loss of most recent song file before addition of drums:
https://www.box.com/s/s3oba05kh8mfi3sorjm0 <-zguit
Pages: 1 ... 5 6 [7] 8 9 ... 19