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I ATTAC

8 (15.4%)

I PROTECC

6 (11.5%)

Waiting on the third one

2 (3.8%)

Waiting on the third AND fourth one

1 (1.9%)

GET WELL SOON ZYGARDE

5 (9.6%)

I am a concientous objector and abstain from taking up arms

30 (57.7%)

Total Members Voted: 51

[Neonivek]

In many ways the Tapu do make sense to be like that.

They are made to sort of test the player (Ignoring that this is Pokémon... You can sleep through the series)

There's so many of them and they're way too strong

Yep they are Legendary Pokémon alright. The ones that weren't "Too strong" were just badly made.

My annoyance is that the others aren't EXACTLY available.

[Culise]

Good heavens, I entirely forgot.  I saw it the other day when I was checking up on what I missed over the summer, and I figured it'd be wise to post it here at some point.  I don't imagine that anyone interested has not already seen it, but the next set of mega stones was publicly released.  Since I've been slacking, I'll do the whole lot.

POYONG: Gardevoirite, Galladite, Lopunnite & Diancite
SABLEVOLANT: Tyranitarite, Abomasite, Manectite & Aggronite
MATSUBUSA: Sceptilite, Blazikenite, Swampertite, Banettite & Cameruptite

Already posted before:
AZUL: Pidgeotite, Steelixite, Heracronite & Houndoominite
INTIMIDATE: Mawilite, Medichamite, Audinite & Beedrillite
M2DESCENT: Mewtwonite X & Mewtwonite Y

[Akura]

Thanks for that, been wondering about the silence on it.

Regarding the Tapus, aren't they literal gods? As in, similar (in lore) to the likes of Groudon/Kyogre or Mesprit/Azelf/Uxie? As far as I know, the Tapus are in the category of legendaries that are one-of-a-kind in-universe. (Fun fact, Mewtwo is not in that category.)

And also this isn't a first time that they've had four legendaries in a group. Gen V had The Swords of Justice: Cobalion, Terrakion, Virizion, and Keldeo(who is different/slightly weaker, but included). And similar to the Tapus being all Fairy-type mixes, the SoJ are all Fighting-type mixes.

[umiman]

Thanks for that, been wondering about the silence on it.

Regarding the Tapus, aren't they literal gods? As in, similar (in lore) to the likes of Groudon/Kyogre or Mesprit/Azelf/Uxie? As far as I know, the Tapus are in the category of legendaries that are one-of-a-kind in-universe. (Fun fact, Mewtwo is not in that category.)

And also this isn't a first time that they've had four legendaries in a group. Gen V had The Swords of Justice: Cobalion, Terrakion, Virizion, and Keldeo(who is different/slightly weaker, but included). And similar to the Tapus being all Fairy-type mixes, the SoJ are all Fighting-type mixes.

In game terms, the Tapus are second tier legendaries. They're not Mewtwo or even Xerneas level.

They're in the same bracket as the Tornadus, Landorus, etc. level.

They're not overpowered. They're just stupidly annoying and I hate them because they're in the same area as Landorus. You have to fight them every single battle because they're too strong for their bracket but not strong enough to be banned. Most of the UBs are in this set as well.

I don't care about them from a story point of view. Pokemon's story is juvenile beyond all comprehension and further heightens the discrepancy between how it's a game meant for kids but with gameplay mechanics only an autist like me can figure out. Trying to justify pokemon abilities via the plot is essentially a competition between two ten-year-olds trying to one-up each other.

"MY LEGENDARY IS BETTER BECAUSE IT'S THE GOD OF ALL POKEMON!"

"YEAH WELL MY LEGENDARY IS BETTER BECAUSE MINE CONTROLS ALL TIME AND SPACE!"

"MY LEGENDARY CAN TRAVEL THROUGH DIMENSIONS TO BRING OTHER LEGENDARY POKEMON TO KICK YOUR LEGENDARY'S ASS!!!!"

----

Amusingly, none of the above are particularly amazing legendaries.

The way I see it, adults tell these lies about "legendaries" to their kids in the Pokemon universe to give them shit to do or something. When in reality, these legendaries are just fairly rare normal Pokemon. Then most of the plot are just the children's imaginations. The game's actual stats and stuff are what those Pokemon actually can do.

[Akura]

If you're having trouble fighting them(I'm guessing multiplayer?), remember that two are weak to Steel(the other two are neutral), and all are weak to Poison(and Bulu is double-weak).

I have a few ideas for counters to them, but I can't seem to find any simulator that has Gen VII to test.

[Neonivek]

I mean... in all fairness...

Pokémon Snap does let you find all the legendary pokemon (except I believe Mewtwo) and that game involves you LITERALLY being on rails.

The way the show implies it is that there are the actual Legendary Pokémon, and then there are other members of their race. So there is "The Moltres" and there is also a Moltres. Though not all pokemon have multiple members.

The games are similar... but simply imply that some legendaries are like unicorns, mythical but not the only one of their species.

The games, assuming Pokken Tournament is canon, DOES imply that there is more than one Mewtwo... somehow.

[Akura]

I just came up with a possible Tapu counter - Shedinja. Of the few moves capable of hitting Shedinja that the Tapus can learn, it looks like there's only a couple that I would figure would actually be on them - Koko's Brave Bird or Bulu's Leech Seed, for example - and most are TM moves(none are STAB moves). Fini gets only Shadow Ball as far as I can tell(or Grass Knot if it uses Soak first).

The downside is that Shedinja's movepool sucks, especially for attacking the Tapus. The only Steel-type move it learns is Metal Claw, which requires delaying Nincada's evolution a level, and it learns no Poison-type moves besides Toxic. Given the difficulty they might have bringing Shedinja down, Toxic might actually work.

One thing I don't know for certain is the effect of Nature's Madness or Guardian of Alola. Would the 75% damage effect of GoA be rounded up?

[Reudh]

Well, part of the reason the terrains went so underused in Gen 6 was that there was no auto-terrain ability, like there was for weather (eg. Sand Stream, Snow Warning, Drought, Drizzle). Remember when Ninetales was announced to have Drought as its hidden ability, and it shot right up to OU, along with Politoed, who got Drizzle? They were the first non Kyogre/Groudon users of Drought and Drizzle, and it made them downright indispensable to weather teams.

The Tapus are in a similar boat now. They're high end of OU, heavily used, because their abilities are unique and facilitate the other members of their team in many different ways, much like Sandstorms enhance Rock type pokemon's special defense by 50% for their duration, or how rain makes Swift Swimmers double in speed, similarly sun with Chlorophyll.

I think as Ultra Sun and Moon come out and Gen7's meta matures, we'll see the rise of hard hitting poison types, possibly excepting against Tapu Lele (the psychic/fairy one). Salazzle is a good counter in theory, but is too fragile, and Toxapex is too slow and passive. I've been playing around with a special based Nidoking; 295 spatk at level 100 isn't particularly great, but with Sheer Force and Life Orb you get a solid boost from both, and Sheer Force negates Life Orb recoil. It has Sludge Wave/Thunderbolt/Earth Power/Flamethrower, and it can deal with everything but Lele quite well.

Bulu is hit 4x effective by Sludge Wave, and its normal wallbreaking set is entirely neutral vs. Nidoking's Poison/Ground typing. Nido isn't frail, but it's not particularly bulky, either. A speed invested Bulu will outrun an uninvested Nidoking and likely KO with Wood Hammer.

Spoiler: Damage calculations (click to show/hide)

Damage calcs:

+0 252ATK Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer (Grassy Terrain) vs 0HP/0DEF Nidoking: guaranteed OHKO (132-156%)
+0 252ATK Tapu Bulu Horn Leech (Grassy Terrain) vs 0HP/0DEF Nidoking: guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain (83-98%)
+0 252ATK Tapu Bulu Superpower vs 0HP/0DEF Nidoking: guaranteed 4HKO after Grassy Terrain (29.3-34.6%)
+0 252ATK Tapu Bulu Stone Edge vs 0HP/0DEF Nidoking: chance to 5HKO after Grassy Terrain (24.4-29.9%)

So yeah, not looking particularly good for Nidoking. If Bulu clicks Z-Horn Leech or Z-Wood Hammer (Bloom Doom) then it's a guaranteed KO no matter what, it just hits like a fuckin' truck. But Bulu only has 75 speed, and won't breach 249 speed at max investment, where the normal Nidoking Sheer Force Life Orb spatk set I use sits at 295. So, conversely:

+0 252SPATK Nidoking Sheer Force Life Orb Earth Power vs 0HP/0SPDEF Tapu Bulu: 55% chance to 3HKO after Grassy Terrain (34-40.5%)
+0 252SPATK Nidoking Sheer Force Life Orb Flamethrower vs 0HP/0SPDEF Tapu Bulu: 56% chance to OHKO (92-109%)
+0 252SPATK Nidoking Sheer Force Life Orb Ice Beam vs 0HP/0SPDEF Tapu Bulu: 56% chance to OHKO (92-109%)
+0 252SPATK Nidoking Sheer Force Life Orb Thunderbolt vs 0HP/0SPDEF Tapu Bulu: don't bother, it resists it, why did you click on this
+0 252SPATK Nidoking Sheer Force Life Orb Sludge Wave vs 0HP/0SPDEF Tapu Bulu: guaranteed 1HKO (294-345%)

I might write up how Nidoking deals with the other three Tapus in a bit; I'm testing that Shedinja idea using common Tapu movesets.





Shedinja can't do much more than 30ish% to any of the Tapus. Nature's Madness is Fairy type, so it deals no damage against Wonder Guard. Bulu, Fini and Koko's common sets can't touch Shedinja outside of taunting it, preventing it from Willowisping or taunting itself. Fini's Scald won't burn because it won't affect Shedinja. Tapu Lele is often run with Hidden Power Fire, which OHKOs Shedinja. Sadly, Shedinja doesn't get Endeavour, which might actually give it an offensive presence. So if it came down to a 1v1, everyone else is tired out, Shedinja could probably whittle down three of the four common Tapu sets, but it's beyond useless against anything besides that. And if the player's Tapus have deviated from regular sets, then it's a big gamble anyway.


Oh yeah, also; Tapu Koko's normal set as a pivot or with the Z-Wild Charge set, can't really do much against Nidoking. HP Ice 2HKOs Nidoking, but Nidoking OHKOs with Sludge Wave or Earth Power.
Tapu Fini frightens it out with Scald, Tapu Lele with Psychic.

[Cerol Lenslens]

I fucking hate the Tapu series. They look stupid, they all look the same, and they're all way too "perfect". Every single one of them has amazing coverage, strong to powerful defenses, good speed for their roles, and some sort of stupid gimmick ability that makes things unnecessarily annoying because they're too complicated.

Seriously. Without checking the wiki, tell me right now what electric terrain, misty terrain, grassy terrain, and psychic terrain does.

Here's the answer for electric:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

This terrain has the following effects on Pokémon that are on the ground and not in the semi-invulnerable turn of a move.

    It prevents affected Pokémon from being afflicted by sleep or Yawn.
        If an affected Pokémon is already drowsy due to Yawn, it is prevented from falling asleep.
        Rest will fail if used by an affected Pokémon.
    It boosts the power of Electric-type moves used by affected Pokémon by 50% (regardless of whether the target of the move is affected by Electric Terrain).

If Electric Terrain is in effect, Nature Power becomes Thunderbolt, Secret Power uses the animation of Thunder Shock and may cause paralysis, and Camouflage causes the user to become Electric-type. Natural objects disappear and cannot be destroyed while Electric Terrain is in effect.

Pokémon with the Ability Surge Surfer have their Speed stat doubled when under the effects of Electric Terrain.

If a Pokémon is holding an Electric Seed while the field is Electric Terrain, it consumes the Electric Seed and its Defense is increased by one stage (even if it is not otherwise affected by the terrain).

If a Terrain Extender is held when Electric Terrain is used, the terrain will last 8 turns instead of 5.

When a Pokémon with the Ability Electric Surge enters battle, Electric Terrain is automatically created which lasts for 5 turns (8 if the Pokémon holds a Terrain Extender).

If powered up by an Electrium Z into Z-Electric Terrain, the user's Speed stat raises one stage.

They're all drastically different by the way.

I'm going to note that this really isn't all that different from existing weather mechanics. (Other than not actually triggering a bunch of weather mechanics.) Kyogre was basically considered the top legendary for some time after 3rd gen, IIRC, pretty much coasting on Drizzle synergy and legendary stats alone.

I mean, your list on electric terrain up there can pretty much be boiled down to "Electric moves boosted. Dudes on the ground can't sleep because electric clowns will eat them. See Rest's errata for what being unable to sleep or already asleep does when you try to use Rest" and a bunch of things that terrain-sensitive moves and abilities do in response to it. (See: Swift Swim; Rain Dish; Dry Skin; Damp Rock; Weather Ball; Drizzle; Castform; Z-Rain Dance; Thunder + Hurricane accuracy; Synthesis, Moonlight, and Morning Sun healing rates; etc. etc. etc.)

Moreover, like 90% of the stuff listed seems barely relevant: How often do people actually use Camouflage, Nature Power, and Secret Power in competitive play? How many people actually build Terrain teams to capitalize on Tapu for Koko Puffs' ability, and therefore really want to use Terrain Extender, Electric Seed, etc?

When Tapu Cucco comes out, my normal response is, "Oh, hey, it's that Pokemon that changes the background a hideous yellow color" not "Oh God, so many variables to  track!"

[umiman]

Incidentally, the reason I write up these posts is partially for me to vent about things I don't like in competitive Pokemon and to facilitate discussion like this.

I like it when people use them as springboards to think about Pokemon battles like what you guys are doing. So even if you don't play competitive, people can still understand a bit of why the battles are so fun and complex.

-------------

That being said...

You should never think of Pokemon as being a series of counters. Everything has a counter in this game, and if it were that simple we'd be playing a babymode game like Hearts of Iron 4. Think of how they fit in the flow of the game and the performance of an entire team.

In this case, Shedinja is an awful "counter" to anything. The entire metagame is filled with stealth rock, spikes, weather, and priority. Shedinja cannot be used in the game unless you have an answer to all of them, in which case I'd be somewhat curious about your entire team revolving around a Shedinja.

[Greiger]

Maybe a little late here.  But I always found it immensely amusing to one shot a Tapu (koko? The electric one I forget it's name) with a Gigavolt havok from my Jolteon. 

I always imagined them being all like oh yer using a z lightning move?  Nothing here is weak to electric.   On my tapu koko?  lololol you idio-   Holy shit that emptied that hp bar fast.  That must have hit hard... Bye bye tapu...

Afterwards Jolteon rides the elec terrain to victory.

[Reudh]

Incidentally, the reason I write up these posts is partially for me to vent about things I don't like in competitive Pokemon and to facilitate discussion like this.

I like it when people use them as springboards to think about Pokemon battles like what you guys are doing. So even if you don't play competitive, people can still understand a bit of why the battles are so fun and complex.

-------------

That being said...

You should never think of Pokemon as being a series of counters. Everything has a counter in this game, and if it were that simple we'd be playing a babymode game like Hearts of Iron 4. Think of how they fit in the flow of the game and the performance of an entire team.

In this case, Shedinja is an awful "counter" to anything. The entire metagame is filled with stealth rock, spikes, weather, and priority. Shedinja cannot be used in the game unless you have an answer to all of them, in which case I'd be somewhat curious about your entire team revolving around a Shedinja.

Oh yeah, for sure. Shedinja would only work under ideal conditions and even then it's just going to be a snorefest while it does its best (not very much) to outdo the passive healing of Bulu's leftovers + grassy terrain or Fini's aqua ring, if run. It's about as logical as the Sturdinja strategy, though that's actually kind of funny to see, or that famous replay on Showdown showcasing how Assist V-Create interacts with various Assist users.

[Neonivek]

When Tapu Cucco comes out, my normal response is, "Oh, hey, it's that Pokemon that changes the background a hideous yellow color"

I mean, killing someone with the garishness is one way to win.

(Yes this is a joke post)

[umiman]

When Tapu Cucco comes out, my normal response is, "Oh, hey, it's that Pokemon that changes the background a hideous yellow color"

I mean, killing someone with the garishness is one way to win.

(Yes this is a joke post)

[Neonivek]

I am so desperate for a Space themed Pokémon game at this point. They are TEASING me at this point.