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[Nadaka]

so are you still working on the every one must buy private health insurance, or are you going to get a uk  style system(free at the point of use)

More the first, none of the last.
I believe that individual states can opt their citizens out of the process, but mandatory private health insurance purchase is still going to happen in some states. maybe half? maybe more?

[Descan]

It works for universities though.

It most emphatically does not work for universities. The way university students are baited, chewed up and shit out is a travesty.

Really? I graduated without any debt and have a good job as an diving engineer now.

Lucky you.

You're only one person though.

[Mrhappyface]

I honestly don't understand why so many students are graduating with such high amounts of debt. A few scholarships, parent saving, the fact I stayed at home, and a minimum wage job were enough for me to get through. It was true for pretty much everyone in my graduating class.

[mainiac]

Seriously read the constitution and you'll see a list of twenty or so points concerning what they can do.

See above. They have the right to make laws.

This is extremely misleading. The US Congress does not have the power to make absolutely any law they want; they are granted certain powers by Article I, Section 8 of the Constitution. They emphatically cannot make absolutely any law they want regarding absolutely anything they want. Article I, Section 9 lists some specific limits on their power. The 10th Amendment also places some clear restrictions on federal power.

Wow, it's almost like constitutional law is a complex field with many doctrines and precedents upon which the social contract is laid out.

In fact, the individual mandate was at one point part of the Republican agenda, years ago.

And not many years at that.  Two in fact, they were proposing medicare privatization as an individual mandate before the 2010 elections.

I was referencing this. In that there was no healthcare amendment, but the legislative branch does have the power to legislate taxation - which is what the Supreme Court is calling this. Sorry if there was any confusion.

Just because the constitution doesn't explicitly say something doesn't mean the government can't do it.  Some things are implied.  Show me where in the constitution it says that the government is allowed to hire people to carry mail between post offices or where it says the government can regulate uranium.  Show me where it says that the government is allowed to buy ammo to go in the guns that it is allowed to buy for the troops.  None of these powers are explicitly authorized.  But you'd have to be deliberately obtuse to not see that they are implied.

[palsch]

I believe that individual states can opt their citizens out of the process, but mandatory private health insurance purchase is still going to happen in some states. maybe half? maybe more?

There is no opt out for the individual mandate. That is universally applied.

The opt out is for the Medicaid expansion. This massively expanded who and what was covered by Medicaid, which is essentially a single payer, government healthcare option. Notably it would have covered all individuals under 138% of the poverty line.

Again, this summary is the best I've found for the Medicaid expansion. That's what states may exempt themselves from. The mandate and other provisions are, well, mandatory.

[Aseaheru]

anyone here hear about the second bill of rights?
hint: FDR,WWII,Japan,Germany,{SPOILER}==>

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

free healthcare, afordable housing, jobs for all, equality for all,even more goodness.

, Three stages of civil rights, 2 of 3.


also, why is it that CUBA has better healthcare then the USA?
or that ours SUCKS GLANDS FOR PRODUCTION OF SEMEN?!?!



mrhappyface, ................ ask wall st.
wow, 5 posts while writing this....

[Mrhappyface]

Cuba?
They have universal, but it's not necessarily as well run or efficient as it is in Europe. There's still a rather unequal distribution of funds and supplies (not to mention outdated equipment) when comparing urban and rural areas.

[G-Flex]

I honestly don't understand why so many students are graduating with such high amounts of debt. A few scholarships, parent saving, the fact I stayed at home, and a minimum wage job were enough for me to get through. It was true for pretty much everyone in my graduating class.

It's plainly obvious that this isn't enough for everyone, or even most people, going to college, and that not everyone graduating college can find a job easily. Hell, right now a lot of them can't find jobs at all.

[Heron TSG]

*sigh*

Just because the constitution doesn't explicitly say something doesn't mean the government can't do it.  Some things are implied.  Show me where in the constitution it says that the government is allowed to hire people to carry mail between post offices or where it says the government can regulate uranium.  Show me where it says that the government is allowed to buy ammo to go in the guns that it is allowed to buy for the troops.  None of these powers are explicitly authorized.  But you'd have to be deliberately obtuse to not see that they are implied.

Section 8 - Powers of Congress

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

...

To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof. (A bill can be written to allow for bullets to provide for the previous.)

You got me on the uranium, though. I'm still not sure how this is relevant, though.

What exactly is your position here? From my perspective, it appears that you think I'm arguing that the government doesn't have the right to tax, or possibly that this bill doesn't count as a tax. (Even though the SCOTUS says it is.)

[Aseaheru]

well, the fact that we still have a embargo on them and they are still better then us, i say they are WIN.

[Josephus]

You got me on the uranium, though. I'm still not sure how this is relevant, though.

I think the point he was trying to make is that there are powers of government that are constitutional despite not being explicitly stated in the constitution.

[G-Flex]

There's the "necessary and proper" clause. Also, regulation of uranium could in part be an interstate trade thing, and have something to do with "providing for the common defense and general welfare".

You got me on the uranium, though. I'm still not sure how this is relevant, though.

I think the point he was trying to make is that there are powers of government that are constitutional despite not being explicitly stated in the constitution.

Barely. The federal Congress has its enumerated powers, some vague statements that give it implied powers, and everything else is reserved for the States/people as per Amendment X.

well, the fact that we still have a embargo on them and they are still better then us, i say they are WIN.

Please don't assume that having socialist health care automatically makes their health care system "better".

[Aseaheru]

this raises the old argument of whether or not the gov can only do what the Constitution or if it allows for expansion.

and i dont. but it is ranked higher than ours and we are the ONLY industrialized nation without universal healthcare.

[Heron TSG]

You got me on the uranium, though. I'm still not sure how this is relevant, though.

I think the point he was trying to make is that there are powers of government that are constitutional despite not being explicitly stated in the constitution.

Which is great and all, but I knew that and had never said anything otherwise. To put things back on track, does anyone know of a state that has made any sort of motion to opt out of this?

[Nadaka]

It works for universities though.

It most emphatically does not work for universities. The way university students are baited, chewed up and shit out is a travesty.

Really? I graduated without any debt and have a good job as an diving engineer now.

I did not have the issues so the issues do not exist for anyone?

Exactly, it did OK for me as well. I got out with a moderate amount of debt and a good job. That doesn't mean that there are not hundreds of thousands, or even millions, of young people drowning in debt and unable to find work, or find work that pays enough to pay off their debt and still survive.

I honestly don't understand why so many students are graduating with such high amounts of debt. A few scholarships, parent saving, the fact I stayed at home, and a minimum wage job were enough for me to get through. It was true for pretty much everyone in my graduating class.

1: not everyone gets scholarships, or sufficient scholarships. I got screwed out of my big scholarships because a health issue pushed me out of school in my second semester (pneumonia and complications), and returning to school did not allow those scholarships to continue. I only had access to the MTAG and PELL grants, and if you get a Pell grant, the MTAG doesn't pay out.

2: not everyone has parents willing or able to pay for their childrens education. Many parents are poor, many parents don't give a shit about their kids, many parents may not have been poor, but still had difficulty saving.

3: not everyone lives close enough to a university to stay at home, or has parents willing or able to keep them. This one is pretty obvious.

4: the system of federal loan insurance has allowed the cost of schooling to artificially inflate beyond its value in most cases, and a media campaign of disinformation and distortion has led many people to believe that the artificially inflated costs are worth it, and they fall into a trap.