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Author Topic: WHOOOO HEALTH CARE RULED CONSTITUTIONAL  (Read 25680 times)

Aseaheru

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Re: WHOOOO HEALTH CARE RULED CONSTITUTIONAL
« Reply #135 on: June 28, 2012, 05:42:21 pm »

when you have nowhere else to go, and you have to buy that shat, then you cant leave.
captive market.
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Mr. Palau

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Re: WHOOOO HEALTH CARE RULED CONSTITUTIONAL
« Reply #136 on: June 28, 2012, 05:56:34 pm »

when you have nowhere else to go, and you have to buy that shat, then you cant leave.
captive market.
That is not the case in the healthcare law as you are required to buy a product, and since there are multiple specific providers for that product market forces still apply. Any oligopoly is against the law (assuming they have evidence that the firms are actively conspiring together), and there are provisions in the law to increase consumer choice in the healthcare market.
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GreatJustice

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Re: WHOOOO HEALTH CARE RULED CONSTITUTIONAL
« Reply #137 on: June 28, 2012, 06:13:36 pm »

Quote
3. In healthcare, limited or total government involvement is more efficent than just private providers. The system Singapore has setup is much more efficent than the one in the US (and anywhere else), and it includes a larger role for the government

To call the American healthcare system "private" is like calling the New Economic Plan "Unrestrained Laissez Faire". Quite frankly, its a convoluted mess and has been such for a very long time.

Singaporean healthcare is nominally more government controlled than American healthcare, true, but it also happens to be far more streamlined and is less subject to the jungle of regulations and laws that characterize the American system. In the US:

-90%ish of the actual hospitals are owned by the US government (or state governments or what have you) despite nominally being "private"

-The AMA restricts the number of doctors certified each year artificially for the purpose of ensuring that those doctors who do get certified can get paid extortionate amounts of money without the threat of competition (IIRC the AMA has licensed almost the exact same number of doctors every year since 1920 or so though I may be wrong on that point)

-The FDA, completely in the pocket of massive pharmaceutical corporations, arbitrarily decides what is "safe" and what is "unsafe" without much regard for actual health risks or benefits. I recall an instance where the FDA rejected a cosmetic by a sizable vote, and later approved the EXACT SAME cosmetic from a different corporation by the opposite margin in favour. The cost of "testing" is around 250 million, and the FDA doesn't actually do the testing itself, meaning that competition in the industry is nearly nonexistent

-Medicare and Medicaid both massively push up costs due to hugely increasing demand for (generally unneeded) healthcare without increasing supply in a similar fashion (there was a cool chart showing international healthcare costs from the 1950s/60s onwards that showed basically all nations having similar rates of increase with the US near the bottom that then showed the US skyrocketing shortly after the introduction of Medicare and Medicaid, if anyone could find the chart I'm thinking of it would be much appreciated)

-Various incentives in the 1950s made American companies pay for their workers' healthcare via insurance, while healthcare insurance companies were simultaneously forced to cover routine checkups and other non-emergency treatment that it was previously intended for. This created a wall between doctors and patients in terms of costs, and patients no longer searched for better costs on healthcare as it was paid for by insurance. In turn, doctors began to jack up costs, as patients didn't care what they had to pay for superfluous treatments.

None of these are problems with the American "free market system", they're problems with the government, insurance companies, and various freeloading parties leeching off the corpse of the American "free market system". The sad thing is that with all this garbage heaped on it, it still functions better than the Canadian system  :(
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KaelGotDwarves

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Re: WHOOOO HEALTH CARE RULED CONSTITUTIONAL
« Reply #138 on: June 28, 2012, 06:16:42 pm »

I'm just here to say that the whole reason I'm able to be insured is as a 25 year old with my illness is "Obamacare", so I guess I'm a success story.

Aqizzar

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Re: WHOOOO HEALTH CARE RULED CONSTITUTIONAL
« Reply #139 on: June 28, 2012, 06:23:44 pm »

I was not a fan of Mr. John Roberts when he was appointed.  He struck me as a deliberate throwback to American mythology of a "better past", like he stepped straight out of a TV show circa 1958.  I am aware that it was hardly an informed opinion, but I certainly wasn't the only one.  Not to mention he was George Bush's second choice behind a woman he picked precisely because she "wasn't a lawyer", which doesn't really compliment any of the parties involved.

He has grown on me over time, at least to the extent that I've kept on decisions.  Yeah, his court has delivered results I haven't agreed with, including his own votes.  I'm looking at you, Citizens United vs FEC.  But even in that, I never got the sense that his own decisions at least were political, especially at a time when his colleagues (I don't want to be partisan, but I am really talking about Alito and Thomas) have gotten considerably more political, and the general crowd that supported his appointment shout from the highest rooftops how they want him to be more political.  Evne Citizens United I got the sense of trying to make a genuine read of law, damn the consequences, specious though the implementation may have been and especially it's new extension to state law.

But Roberts made a statement today that's probably going in the history books.  It's not totally true of course, and never has been including under his own court, but it certainly bears quoting.

Quote from: Chief Justice John Roberts
Members of this Court are vested with the authority to interpret the law; we possess neither the expertise nor the prerogative to make policy judgments. Those decisions are entrusted to our Nation’s elected leaders, who can be thrown out of office if the people disagree with them. It is not our job to protect the people from the consequences of their political choices.

Now we get to see the "Repeal and Replace" fight kick up in earnest starting this week, maybe even drowning out the Black Helicopter nonsense of Eric Holder's treason hearings or whatever the fuck's going on.  I wonder if there will even be a "Replace" part, considering a good 80% of the Affordable Care Act was originally drafted by the American Enterprise Institute for Bob Dole's campaign against Hillarycare.
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Truean

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Re: WHOOOO HEALTH CARE RULED CONSTITUTIONAL
« Reply #140 on: June 28, 2012, 06:25:16 pm »

Well my voicemail is full which means I literally can't count the number of people calling me about this to complain [sigh]. I'm also not returning those calls cause screw it. Also I'm emptying them all out, cause you know, what if somebody with a real problem gets like .... arrested or something and leaves a voicemail cause... they actually need a lawyer? Watch this not safe for work starting at about the 35 second mark to see how I feel about my voice mail being full and spam levels of bullshit in my email.... There's just too many damn stormtroopers old people asking stupid questions....

I will say this though: Americans are already in a captive audience for health insurance and the notion of a free market is a pipe dream in the US. DOESN'T EXIST in health care.

You ... you say "choice...?" Wait, what the? No. Just no. Ok, first, if your employer provides the health care then they chose and not you. Second, if you chose your health care, guess what.... Either a.) they're all the freaking same or progressively worse, or b.) they'll all drop you (see "preexisting conditions"). Americans love this crazy fairy tale notion of choice. The insurance companies are bigger than you and there is absolutely shit you can do against them, especially since this whole "tort reform" stuff made my job a million times harder and they aren't as afraid of me anymore, so it's a crapload harder for you to sue them when they do screw up horridly.

Seriously, where the crap do you think you're gonna go if you don't like your insurance? A "competing insurance company?" They don't "compete." There is no "other choice" because there's nowhere else to get health care paid for that's better.

Edit: are you... are you shitting me? People are still leaving voicemails....? After I dumped it out there's like three more, like new ones.... This is what I get for doing wills for old people....
« Last Edit: June 28, 2012, 06:27:27 pm by Truean »
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Moghjubar

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Re: WHOOOO HEALTH CARE RULED CONSTITUTIONAL
« Reply #141 on: June 28, 2012, 06:56:31 pm »

mail being full and spam levels of bullshit in my email.... [/url] There's just too many damn stormtroopers old people asking stupid questions....

Delete them quick lest you miss the "WAZZAAAAAP" at the end.

Also, vacation responder for emails?
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alway

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Re: WHOOOO HEALTH CARE RULED CONSTITUTIONAL
« Reply #142 on: June 28, 2012, 07:48:36 pm »

"Hello, Truean is currently unavailable. As a handy reminder, Obamacare will, in fact, require a mandatory culling of 50% of senior-age citizens! So remember, stop by and update your will today; before it's too late! Alternatively, leave a message after the beep in support of Obamacare!" *beeep*
« Last Edit: June 28, 2012, 07:51:16 pm by alway »
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: WHOOOO HEALTH CARE RULED CONSTITUTIONAL
« Reply #143 on: June 28, 2012, 08:26:40 pm »

I am pretty sure someone could maybe contrive a reason to sue him for that, possibly. Better declare it to be parody just to be safe.
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Mr. Palau

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Re: WHOOOO HEALTH CARE RULED CONSTITUTIONAL
« Reply #144 on: June 28, 2012, 11:23:10 pm »

You ... you say "choice...?" Wait, what the? No. Just no. Ok, first, if your employer provides the health care then they chose and not you. Second, if you chose your health care, guess what.... Either a.) they're all the freaking same or progressively worse, or b.) they'll all drop you (see "preexisting conditions").
First, they will choose the best plan for them. That plan is likely to be a pretty good plan, in order to incentivize you to take the job (although they could make up for it with pay or other incentives). Second A. There is no way all of the healthcare plans could be the same, that just wouldn't happen in a competitive healthcare market. They would have to differentiate themselves in some way in order to attract customers. If they are progressively worse, than conversly you admited that there are better plans. By saying some are worse than others, you say some are better than others. The ones that are better than others will attract more customers, encouraging the other plans to compete in order to stay competitive. B: Denial of coverage due to pre-existing conditions is not allowed under Obama-Care.
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penguinofhonor

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Re: WHOOOO HEALTH CARE RULED CONSTITUTIONAL
« Reply #145 on: June 28, 2012, 11:36:09 pm »

First, they will choose the best plan for them. That plan is likely to be a pretty good plan, in order to incentivize you to take the job (although they could make up for it with pay or other incentives).

Yeah, uh, not in this job market. Lots of people don't have the ability to choose between multiple jobs based on which has the better insurance. From my experience, if you have good insurance then you're either very lucky or you work in an environment where you're pretty likely to get injured. Anyone else's employer chooses the best plan for the employer: a cheap one.
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Mr. Palau

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Re: WHOOOO HEALTH CARE RULED CONSTITUTIONAL
« Reply #146 on: June 28, 2012, 11:40:15 pm »

First, they will choose the best plan for them. That plan is likely to be a pretty good plan, in order to incentivize you to take the job (although they could make up for it with pay or other incentives).

Yeah, uh, not in this job market. Lots of people don't have the ability to choose between multiple jobs based on which has the better insurance. From my experience, if you have good insurance then you're either very lucky or you work in an environment where you're pretty likely to get injured. Anyone else's employer chooses the best plan for the employer: a cheap one.
That's actually true for most professions in this job market. Depending apon the demand for you're job the quality of your healthcare will vary accordingly.
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penguinofhonor

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Re: WHOOOO HEALTH CARE RULED CONSTITUTIONAL
« Reply #147 on: June 28, 2012, 11:53:48 pm »

And with pretty significant unemployment and underemployment, people get uninsured and underinsured. Because once again, it's your employer that chooses. Good insurance isn't a way to convince people to get your job, it's a way to convince them that the risks of your job are worth taking it.
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Nilik

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Re: WHOOOO HEALTH CARE RULED CONSTITUTIONAL
« Reply #148 on: June 28, 2012, 11:58:53 pm »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-18630837

The comments hurt my head.

Quote
The government telling me what I should buy or get fined!!!! I think that is the real issue. I do not think any government should force buisness on its citicens. Why not regulate how much insurrance companies can charge thus lowering prices and we can afford insurrance, and purchase it of our own free will.

This is an "editor's pick"? Really?

Quote
I personally cannot believe that the court upheld this, since most of us that do not have insurance cannot afford it let alone a fine for not having it. As I am a full time college student and I cannot find a job to pay for gas much less insurance, and the only reason I am not behind on the few bills I have is because my mother has been helping me. Also, Carolyn, both parties are to blame!

Another "editor's pick". If you're a full-time college student with no income wouldn't you fall into the "free insurance" category?

Its not all bad though, here's the best rated one:

Quote
I don't care about the politics of the decision I just want to say this. When my wife lost her job and then her kidney she found herself without health insurance, now with preexisting conditions, and bills of $200,000+. As we own our home we are ineligible for charity. With outstanding bills no hospital will treat her for anything but emergencies. The Healthcare Reform act means my wife will live.
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Truean

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Re: WHOOOO HEALTH CARE RULED CONSTITUTIONAL
« Reply #149 on: June 29, 2012, 12:08:48 am »

First, they will choose the best plan for them. That plan is likely to be a pretty good plan, in order to incentivize you to take the job (although they could make up for it with pay or other incentives).

Yeah, uh, not in this job market. Lots of people don't have the ability to choose between multiple jobs based on which has the better insurance. From my experience, if you have good insurance then you're either very lucky or you work in an environment where you're pretty likely to get injured. Anyone else's employer chooses the best plan for the employer: a cheap one.
That's actually true for most professions in this job market. Depending apon the demand for you're job the quality of your healthcare will vary accordingly.

???

Or not.

No no, see this is a fallacy that's been exposed. Started with outsourcing and the pipe dream that "better white collar jobs were safe." No. Now we're outsourcing those too.

You've forgotten about seriously factoring in corporate cost cutting. They aren't going to chose the best to attract you. It's "here's a job and take it or go screw yourself and you'd better say 'thank you' for the privilege of breathing the same air as us who employ you." They will chose the cheapest plan they can get away with and that their conscience will let them. To the extent that they don't, that's from a different, better and long gone time. Unfortunately, these "good jobs" are now few and far between. Most of the new jobs created are part time, pay shit, are temporary, etc. You're lucky if they come with benefits at all. The whole industry was collapsing and completely unsustainable, but so long as enough of the population got to keep things in their comfy status quo, then they didn't care about the suffering people or that the system they had become dependent upon was slowly shattering to pieces. 

As for health plans getting "progressively worse," no, that's a misunderstanding in terms. Let me explain. They will get "progressively worse," as you get sick or otherwise when they decide they want to drop your ass for no real reason. Moreover, they also keep track of how many times you've switched companies. They don't like you switching companies, and they look at you funny when you do, because they think there might be a reason you switched companies, like a reason they think you don't want them to know about. In short, they will penalize you for switching insurance companies, for any reason, and you just won't know about it. Because if you were healthy, then you'd have no reason to switch/your rates at your old company would've been low enough that you wouldn't have had to switch..... Yeah.... Moreover, your copays will increase as time goes on and they "renegotiate" your insurance, and your coverage, along with everyone else's will lessen. This is called people not understanding how the insurance industry really works.

You ... you say "choice...?" Wait, what the? No. Just no. Ok, first, if your employer provides the health care then they chose and not you. Second, if you chose your health care, guess what.... Either a.) they're all the freaking same or progressively worse, or b.) they'll all drop you (see "preexisting conditions").
First, they will choose the best plan for them. That plan is likely to be a pretty good plan, in order to incentivize you to take the job (although they could make up for it with pay or other incentives). Second A. There is no way all of the healthcare plans could be the same, that just wouldn't happen in a competitive healthcare market. They would have to differentiate themselves in some way in order to attract customers. If they are progressively worse, than conversly you admited that there are better plans. By saying some are worse than others, you say some are better than others. The ones that are better than others will attract more customers, encouraging the other plans to compete in order to stay competitive. B: Denial of coverage due to pre-existing conditions is not allowed under Obama-Care.

Prior to the ACA, they did deny you for pre existing conditions, especially fake ones.

Basically people are so entirely and completely devoted to the idea that this mystical magical idea called "the free market" both exists and will save them, that any thought to the contrary leads to a total mental meltdown and the repeating of old sayings like prayers or incantations warding off evil spirits, "competition will yield good results," "companies will have to care about ____ because if they don't then the other ones will," "regulation is bad." Whatever.... The company makes money when it screws you over, think about that.

 The reality is, there is 0 competition, at all, at all in health care, because you effectively don't have a choice: literally if your boss provides healthcare, or practically if you chose it (if you can even afford it at all).

Two words: "Medical Bankruptcy." The system sucks, and is horridly broken to the point of collapse. Fact of the matter is, it was falling apart. If nothing was done, you'd have lost what you have eventually anyhow. Most Americans live in a fake plastic disney world with not the slightest idea how the real world works.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2012, 12:14:21 am by Truean »
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Current Spare Time Fiction Project: (C) 2010 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=63660.0
Disclaimer: I never take cases online for ethical reasons. If you require an attorney; you need to find one licensed to practice in your jurisdiction. Never take anything online as legal advice, because each case is different and one size does not fit all. Wants nothing at all to do with law.

Please don't quote me.
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