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[Corai]

The interesting part about a loyalty cascade, from what I've read in other threads here, is that it is possible, if you are very very very lucky, to have a number of your dwarves join forces to create an entirely new civ that is separate from (and now at least an enemy of, if not at war with) your original parent civ when you embarked.  I can't remember what this does for migrants, however.

Pics please. I must see this.

[WaffleEggnog]

Just isolate one dorf with food and booze, or preferably a vamp, and wait for waves of migrants. Done and done.... ish

[vidboi]

Pics please. I must see this.

I don't have pics, but it's true. It's due to your dwarves being friendly in two ways: civ members and group members. When a dwarf kills a member of your civ (the friendly merchant for example) it becomes an enemy of your civ but remains a member of your group. Other dwarves, being your civ will then attack the first dwarf and so become enemies of your group whilst still being members of your civ and so on. In the end you have two groups - civ members and group members - who are enemies with each other and it turns into a sort of civil war. If the civ party wins you should be able to continue trading as normal, however if the group party wins they'll be hostile to traders. Either way, as migrants are both civ members and group members they'll be hostile to both sides. The only way to stop it is to isolate the dwarves who become enemies of your group/civ before they can be attacked by other dwarves, spreading the loyalty cascade.

[Mimodo]

They even killed the children!

It's better that way.

But I love my children... they're all better growers than my farmers! If only they'd pick up a sword

[Orky_Boss]

Pics please. I must see this.

I don't have pics, but it's true. It's due to your dwarves being friendly in two ways: civ members and group members. When a dwarf kills a member of your civ (the friendly merchant for example) it becomes an enemy of your civ but remains a member of your group. Other dwarves, being your civ will then attack the first dwarf and so become enemies of your group whilst still being members of your civ and so on. In the end you have two groups - civ members and group members - who are enemies with each other and it turns into a sort of civil war. If the civ party wins you should be able to continue trading as normal, however if the group party wins they'll be hostile to traders. Either way, as migrants are both civ members and group members they'll be hostile to both sides. The only way to stop it is to isolate the dwarves who become enemies of your group/civ before they can be attacked by other dwarves, spreading the loyalty cascade.

Makes sense. Well, as much sense as a game like dwarf fortress can make sense.

[Garath]

They even killed the children!

It's better that way.

definately, they might have gotten caught in the loud whispers



more seriously, DFhack has a fix for this. For those who didn't know yet, DFhack isn't just about cheating, it also solves some big bugs - temporarily. It won't stop bugged migrants, but allows to turn them back to regular migrants. tweak fixmigrants iirc

and I've mentioned this in a thread where corai posted before, I'm disappointed he didn't remember and mention it

[Kar98]

I've had something simliar happen and I think it was due to a shot missfiring and striking a dwarf by accident, which all the other dwarves treated him as hostile. I've still got the combat log if you want to see it

[misko27]

Pics please. I must see this.

I don't have pics, but it's true. It's due to your dwarves being friendly in two ways: civ members and group members. When a dwarf kills a member of your civ (the friendly merchant for example) it becomes an enemy of your civ but remains a member of your group. Other dwarves, being your civ will then attack the first dwarf and so become enemies of your group whilst still being members of your civ and so on. In the end you have two groups - civ members and group members - who are enemies with each other and it turns into a sort of civil war. If the civ party wins you should be able to continue trading as normal, however if the group party wins they'll be hostile to traders. Either way, as migrants are both civ members and group members they'll be hostile to both sides. The only way to stop it is to isolate the dwarves who become enemies of your group/civ before they can be attacked by other dwarves, spreading the loyalty cascade.

Seriously? So its posssible to make a seperatist fort? That is freaking awesome. Next fort it is. But what about children? Are born-in members of the fort enemies, or just the orginal seperatists? And what about human and elven traders? Shouldn't they be friendly? Oh, the places this'll go.

[Corai]

They even killed the children!

It's better that way.

definately, they might have gotten caught in the loud whispers



more seriously, DFhack has a fix for this. For those who didn't know yet, DFhack isn't just about cheating, it also solves some big bugs - temporarily. It won't stop bugged migrants, but allows to turn them back to regular migrants. tweak fixmigrants iirc

and I've mentioned this in a thread where corai posted before, I'm disappointed he didn't remember and mention it

I dont remember alot of that night. I watched too many baby MLP character videos that night.

Spoiler: The voice in Corai's head (click to show/hide)

SHUT UP.

[vidboi]

Pics please. I must see this.

I don't have pics, but it's true. It's due to your dwarves being friendly in two ways: civ members and group members. When a dwarf kills a member of your civ (the friendly merchant for example) it becomes an enemy of your civ but remains a member of your group. Other dwarves, being your civ will then attack the first dwarf and so become enemies of your group whilst still being members of your civ and so on. In the end you have two groups - civ members and group members - who are enemies with each other and it turns into a sort of civil war. If the civ party wins you should be able to continue trading as normal, however if the group party wins they'll be hostile to traders. Either way, as migrants are both civ members and group members they'll be hostile to both sides. The only way to stop it is to isolate the dwarves who become enemies of your group/civ before they can be attacked by other dwarves, spreading the loyalty cascade.

Seriously? So its posssible to make a seperatist fort? That is freaking awesome. Next fort it is. But what about children? Are born-in members of the fort enemies, or just the orginal seperatists? And what about human and elven traders? Shouldn't they be friendly? Oh, the places this'll go.

Should be possible, most loyalty cascades don't really survive that long though. Sounds like it's time for some !!SCIENCE!!

[Garath]

I've had something simliar happen and I think it was due to a shot missfiring and striking a dwarf by accident, which all the other dwarves treated him as hostile. I've still got the combat log if you want to see it

wait, what? friendly fire got implemented? Everybody, RUN!

so, no, unlikely

note that caravan guards and liaisons are excepted from this rule

[krenshala]

Pics please. I must see this.

I don't have pics, but it's true. It's due to your dwarves being friendly in two ways: civ members and group members. When a dwarf kills a member of your civ (the friendly merchant for example) it becomes an enemy of your civ but remains a member of your group. Other dwarves, being your civ will then attack the first dwarf and so become enemies of your group whilst still being members of your civ and so on. In the end you have two groups - civ members and group members - who are enemies with each other and it turns into a sort of civil war. If the civ party wins you should be able to continue trading as normal, however if the group party wins they'll be hostile to traders. Either way, as migrants are both civ members and group members they'll be hostile to both sides. The only way to stop it is to isolate the dwarves who become enemies of your group/civ before they can be attacked by other dwarves, spreading the loyalty cascade.

Seriously? So its posssible to make a seperatist fort? That is freaking awesome. Next fort it is. But what about children? Are born-in members of the fort enemies, or just the orginal seperatists? And what about human and elven traders? Shouldn't they be friendly? Oh, the places this'll go.

Should be possible, most loyalty cascades don't really survive that long though. Sounds like it's time for some !!SCIENCE!!

I have not experienced the joys of a loyalty cascade, however, one of the folks that has posted that he ended up with three survivors that were friendly to each other, and hostile to new migrants (if I remember the results correctly).  Most folks just end up with dead forts or a few ragged survivors that usually go insane, possibly before the next migrant wave arrives.

[misko27]

Well, hypothetically, If you send your strongest soldiers up against the rest of your fort, It should be possible to retake it with enough dwarves to rebuild. Children are essential, but I dont know how the civ vs. group changes are, so I dont know.

I've decided to run a test on my current fort, using save-scumming to try repeated attempts. Wish me luck.

[krenshala]

Oooh, Loyalty !!Science!! 

[misko27]

Ok.
First, wow, Lots of death, glad It was just a test. Seriously, wow. Second, after the first test results, things do not look god for the separatists.
There are 3 branches of loyalty cascaders. 1. The Separatists, or those loyal only to the town, 2. The Loyalists, Only loyal to the Civ, and 3. Renegades, those loyal to none. I'm not sure how the original loyalist of separatists start, but it appears that after the first one, anyone who attacks them flips to their opposite i.e. a citizen attacks a loyalist, becomes separatist. The main problem with the citizen faction is if they attack any group other then renegade, they turn. AND, If a separatist or loyalist attacks a citizen, they become a renegade.

When there were 50 dwarves left, I paused and checked alliances. 1 loyalist, 2 separatists, 10 citizens, and 36 renegades. I attribute this to the way the original group of dwarves, who turned separatist after the attack, attacked the citizens, turning renegade. If only there was a way to divide the groups in half somehow, like maybe take a separatist, drop him in a room of citizens, and boom, Instant loyalists.

I will let the current simulation run its course before second test, any suggestions?


EDIT: Forgot to mention, animals always appear to stay loyal to the civ, not sure though, there were certainly alot of animal attacks later in the battle.
EDIT2: Yes, animals are always loyal. Also, Renegades take no orders from you, though they appear on the units screen as citizens. I gues that means no work can be done.