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[Leafsnail]

Regardless of alignment, I will oppose any such attempts. If you think you have something that's important to claim, go ahead and claim it, but don't try to bully others into following you.

I'm pretty sure these "convoluted master plans" almost always work in this setup (evidence: the last time this game was run it went some 13 rounds without a single mafia win), for the simple reason that it's 6 against 1 and all 7 players have great roles.  The scum can't pull any surprises at all because we know every possible role.

In any case, it won't matter too much since we'll have plenty of vigkills to use on policy killing people who don't want to talk about their awesome-for-being-mafia-role.

[NativeForeigner]

In. Role sent.

EDIT: Aww, appears I was too late. I'll be around for the next round, then.

[webadict]

Round 1 has started!

Vote Count
------------------------
Urist Imiknorris -
Leafsnail -
Tiruin -
Toaster -
Bookthras -
Hapah -
NativeForeigner -

Not Voting - Urist Imiknorris, Leafsnail, Tiruin, Toaster, Bookthras, Hapah, NativeForeigner,

It is now Day.

[Leafsnail]

Good morning Bookthras.  Changed your mind, or should the massclaim be delayed until after you're dead?

[Urist Imiknorris]

False Recurring Nightmare Retired Wolf Hunter [Recurring Nightmare]
I can make someone deader than fucking dead at any time (bwahahaha). I can revive once. I was once a proud werewolf hunter, but now I just want to live out my retirement in peace. I have no abilities because web is an asshole (shocking, I know). Can't eradicate, can't revive.

So yeah, I'm useless.

Tiruin, why are you always scum?

Toaster: What do you look for in a post-massclaim action plan?

[Hapah]

Whoo new game! And huh, looks like Native got in.

Native: What did you bribe Web with to get into the game?

Urist: If you knew when you picked your role that you would be the lone Mafia, what would you pick?

Toaster: What traits did you look for in that huge role list?

Tiruin: What do you think is the most powerful role, for Town, in the role list?

[Urist Imiknorris]

Urist: If you knew when you picked your role that you would be the lone Mafia, what would you pick?

Recurring goddamn Nightmare. An anytime kill and a revive? No contest.

[Bookthras]

Imiknorris:

I have no abilities because web is an asshole (shocking, I know). Can't eradicate, can't revive.

He gave you at least one, I'm sure. My guess: a mafiakill.


Leafsnail:
You mean your impressive retort here, I presume:

I'm pretty sure these "convoluted master plans" almost always work in this setup (evidence: the last time this game was run it went some 13 rounds without a single mafia win), for the simple reason that it's 6 against 1 and all 7 players have great roles.  The scum can't pull any surprises at all because we know every possible role.

In any case, it won't matter too much since we'll have plenty of vigkills to use on policy killing people who don't want to talk about their awesome-for-being-mafia-role.

I still think master plans don't work because people do lie (do you think Imiknorris is really a no-abilities role? If so, does he have the mafiakill?), and because it's giving away too much information to the scum. You are right in that I didn't play either of the previous KotM games, so I'm not as familiar with the mechanic, but I stand by my assessment that early mass claims are a stupid idea in principle, and bullying of people into claiming is uncool and I'll oppose it.

That said, if people want to voluntarily claim something, I'm fine with that.


Toaster: are you a miller? what would be your impressions of someone who claims VT on their first post?

Hapah: I'd like to hear your own answer to the question you asked Tiruin. If you wish, you can wait to answer it until after he does.

Leafsnail: was your question to me meant as a threat? Do you intend to call for policy lynches or NKs for people who fail to claim D1? If you were the scum, which of the following would be more important to you in choosing your mafiakill target: a) someone who failed to claim; b) someone who claimed something that seems vulnerable; or c) based on the player's experience/behaviour, rather than role?

[Toaster]

Let's get it on.

Urist I:  The first thing I look for is what could happen in a case where the proposer is lying, and how it could lead to a town loss.  Ideally it should confirm people without leaving just a pair of people alive.


Hapah:  Unusual roles.  Two example roles I picked from last game were Dirty Bomber and Bruce Wayne, so that should give you an idea.  (FYI- Being Batman was awesome.)


Bookthras:  I am not a miller, and I still fully support my "claim miller post one day one" stance.  It's stronger here because of the potential that such an ability would carry over between rounds if you didn't die.  I'd raise an eyebrow at such a claim, but considering we had both a Townie and Mafioso submission at some point in the first game, I wouldn't instantly disbelieve it.


Native:  What have you learned that applies to this gametype in the interim since the last round?


Tiruin:  Have you read the first thread of this game?  Do any of the players here intimidate you?

[Leafsnail]

I still think master plans don't work because people do lie (do you think Imiknorris is really a no-abilities role? If so, does he have the mafiakill?), and because it's giving away too much information to the scum. You are right in that I didn't play either of the previous KotM games, so I'm not as familiar with the mechanic, but I stand by my assessment that early mass claims are a stupid idea in principle, and bullying of people into claiming is uncool and I'll oppose it.

That said, if people want to voluntarily claim something, I'm fine with that.

The point of a massclaim is that it's forced.  If it's not forced then you are just giving the scum information - if it's forced then you're also forcing the scum into a corner by making them either lie or reveal their role (and once they reveal the role you can usually neutralise it in some way).  That said, before the start of the game I was under the impression this game would start on Night 0 - since it actually starts on day 1 a massclaim doesn't give us much more to go on at all.  Unvote.

I can believe that Imiknorris didn't read the OP properly and thus plumped for the most overpowered role available, causing the "I will screw you over if you pick an overpowered role" mechanic to kick in.  I'd say it's a nulltell with regards to alignment.

Leafsnail: was your question to me meant as a threat? Do you intend to call for policy lynches or NKs for people who fail to claim D1? If you were the scum, which of the following would be more important to you in choosing your mafiakill target: a) someone who failed to claim; b) someone who claimed something that seems vulnerable; or c) based on the player's experience/behaviour, rather than role?

It was indeed a threatening pressure vote.  I won't call for policy lynches or NKs for people failing to claim day 1 for reasons described above, but day 2 onwards I will (and without these threats a massclaim is completely pointless).

a) I wouldn't target them specifically.  A town idiot refusing to claim is like a mislynch handed down from the gods.
b) & c): If the role would definitely or almost definitely cause me to lose I'd go for that person.  Otherwise I'd kill based on my usual semi-random serial killer basis (maybe biased towards the louder people).

Native: What did you bribe Web with to get into the game?

Urist: If you knew when you picked your role that you would be the lone Mafia, what would you pick?

Toaster: What traits did you look for in that huge role list?

Tiruin: What do you think is the most powerful role, for Town, in the role list?

These four questions have something in common, Hapah.  They are all completely irrelevant to someone's alignment.  The first is a nonquestion (which is odd considering you're voting the guy) and the others all refer to events that happened before people knew their alignments, meaning there's no reason at all not to answer honestly (and Urist basically answered your question the post before).  They also lack the element of pressure a question needs to be useful in spite of not appearing relevant.

Useless activelurking noise.

[Bookthras]

The point of a massclaim is that it's forced.  If it's not forced then you are just giving the scum information - if it's forced then you're also forcing the scum into a corner by making them either lie or reveal their role

I agree that's the general mechanics of a mass claim. What I objected to was an early mass claim. In a normal game, by D3 or D4, I'd be mostly fine with that -- perhaps less forceful on the threat aspect though, unless I thought it was really necessary. I dislike policy lynches.

I was under the impression this game would start on Night 0 [...] I won't call for policy lynches or NKs for people failing to claim day 1 for reasons described above, but day 2 onwards I will.

I'm OK with the notion that for this particular game type the "early" game may be shorter than for others. Not that I agree with a forced mass claim D2, but I see your point about how a Night 0 would make a difference in the argument, so I'll reserve judgment for now.

I can believe that Imiknorris didn't read the OP properly and thus plumped for the most overpowered role available, causing the "I will screw you over if you pick an overpowered role" mechanic to kick in.

Do you think the Recurring Nightmare role is the most overpowered role available? Powerful, sure, especially for scum, but I'm uncertain of the threshold to trigger that mechanic (though I confess I didn't read the whole list, and can't offhand think of one that would trump it).


Speaking of which, Toaster: I looked on the list, but didn't see a "Batman" role. I do see the "Bruce Wayne", but no details on the transformation... just how awesome was being Batman? Also, regarding Imiknorris versus the "Mafioso (town)", the difference is that the mafioso was by request, while Imiknorris claims web made him a VT against his will, so not the same situation at all. Does this change your view on the matter?

[Toaster]

Bookthras:  It indeed isn't on there.  I don't know if it was static or not, but it was basically a JOAT without the actions being one-shot.  I could kill, inspect, protect, or track.

Not really- I'm sticking with considering it an odd claim but not worthy of action at this point.

[Hapah]

Leaf:I don't think I can be any flavor of lurking when the game is barely three hours old. When I made the post, the thread had been there a half-hour!

The first question was, admittedly, kind of a joke. The other three were relevant, though: I honestly want opinions from others not necessarily to learn their role or alignment (there might be some information in the reply to that end, but odds are slim), but also to see how people select their role and to see strengths or weaknesses that I may have overlooked. For example, I didn't even give a Miller role consideration, because I didn't think it through. Looking at Book and Toaster's post, it's now obvious that it would be fantastic cover should you claim it as Town and then become King. Turns out people can (and will) give incredibly useful and/or insightful information if you just ask 'em.

Besides, it's not like your question is exactly a masterpiece either: You asked Book a question where yes and no answers are both legitimate, and you can't really apply pressure to him no matter what his reply.

Book: I'll wait until Tir replies. Truth be told, my answer changes every time I read through the list. Mind if I pose this same question to you? I imagine there are as many answers as there are people.

Toaster: lol Batman. Why unusual roles? Just because they're fun?

[Leafsnail]

I agree that's the general mechanics of a mass claim. What I objected to was an early mass claim. In a normal game, by D3 or D4, I'd be mostly fine with that -- perhaps less forceful on the threat aspect though, unless I thought it was really necessary. I dislike policy lynches.

When we do massclaim there needs to be full force, otherwise the scum can just not claim.  And by tomorrow it could easily be "lylo" anyway, considering that nights with more than 2 kills aren't remotely uncommon in this game.

I'm OK with the notion that for this particular game type the "early" game may be shorter than for others. Not that I agree with a forced mass claim D2, but I see your point about how a Night 0 would make a difference in the argument, so I'll reserve judgment for now.

Ok.

Do you think the Recurring Nightmare role is the most overpowered role available? Powerful, sure, especially for scum, but I'm uncertain of the threshold to trigger that mechanic (though I confess I didn't read the whole list, and can't offhand think of one that would trump it).

In an actual #mafia game rolling "Recurring Nightmare" in a large game is actually very bad, for the simple reason that you only get one kill.  However, in this setup you get a mafiakill even if you're playing a Serial Killer role, so it means you get both a free revive and a very useful daykill.  Something like Jackie Chan would probably be better as town though since you get a kill.

With the obvious possible better roles (Doomspeaker, Doublekiller, Arsonist, Unlynchable, Evolver, Possessor, Lich) specifically disabled in the OP, the only ones which might be better are Daykiller/ Devil's Advocate (if you're prepared to sacrifice a revive for more daykills), Jackie Chan (if you're prepared to sacrifice the revive and daykill for being immune to everything) or a Poisoner (if you want to very rapidly kill everyone without attracting as much attention as a daykiller).  Thing from Beyond was always a favourite of mine, but it seems to be absent from the list.

Hapah: So you aren't trying to find their alignment with those questions?  If you wanted advice or discussion about roles you can do that pregame.  Or at least do it in addition to trying to find alignments.  In any case, you can definitely be "active lurking" from the very start of the game if all you're doing is making useless noise.

With regards to the "no u" bit: can you not see the difference in making a clear threat towards someone, of the kind that a mafia member would often explode about and furiously retaliate to?

[webadict]

Remember to cast your vote!

Vote Count
------------------------
Urist Imiknorris -
Leafsnail -
Tiruin - Urist Imiknorris,
Toaster - Bookthras,
Bookthras -
Hapah - Leafsnail,
NativeForeigner - Hapah,

Not Voting - Tiruin, Toaster, NativeForeigner,

4 To Hammer. Day Ends Friday 9 PM Central.

Remember to cast your vote!