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[Graknorke]

I get the feeling in my gut that divorce custody is America trying to say that it favors women and is indeed not sexist.[/url]

Could you please explain what you mean by this bit? Are you saying that it is trying to not be sexist by favouring women? Or that it only says it favours women and isn't actually sexist?

[ChairmanPoo]

I'll keep this simple. Family law is so heavily biased towards women it isn't even funny. Looking at some of the stories of men and some of the statistics out there it makes me want to cry. You are one of many men that have to deal with this and I really wish you the best.

My advice? You hold so little power that you need to climb Mt. Everest to even get weekend rights. And even then it would be expensive as hell. Your ex-wife will brainwash your son into hating you and when that happens I very much doubt a functioning relationship can develop.

If you are willing and don't care about cost, fight until you are bled dry. Fight for your son and don't let the court system dictate any time that you should be able to spend with your son. Be assertive, yet respectful. Don't get pushed around. Call your son. Send him letters. He may not even get them all, but at least try.

I have seen things like this happen far too much in my lifetime. If I could do it all over again, I would be have been a family court lawyer doing all I could to defend Men's rights to see their children and spend quality time with them.

This following quote is an experience somewhat similar to yours

A life not worth living

It has been seven years since my wife move 500 miles away with my almost three year old son one day when I was at work; and my 500 mile trips to try to reconcile our family eventually proved futile.

Our marriage lasted almost ten years. We waited seven years to have our first child. Our son was completely planned and welcomed. I was a doting and loving father and I spent every day and weekend with my son.

After the divorce, the courts allowed me to see my son two weekends per month from 10:00 AM to 6:00 PM. I was allowed one phone call per week. The courts allowed his mother to keep him 500 miles away; I had to travel 500 miles to see him. I was ordered to pay his mother $1500 per month. No consideration was taken for my travel expenses.

Most importantly, no consideration was given for my son’s rights to have his father in his life the same amount of time as before. Not three weekends per month, but every day and night and weekend. I was a very affectionate, loving and responsible father and absolutely doted over my son. I was stripped of my fathership and made a visitor in his life.

Within four months my son behaved like a stranger to me. Within six months he was actively hostile towards me. After traveling 500 miles to see him, his mother would not show up with him. His mother was alienating him from me. Within seven months I lost my job. After being a victim of a terrible wife and a corrupt court system, I realized the situation was hopeless; I walked away.

Even though she destroyed 70 percent of the relationship between my son and I, I am the one being blamed for abandonment.

I thought I could begin a new life; but seven years later the pain remains. My pain over missing my son; the pain over how my son must feel; the pain over the disadvantages that my son has. Pain over a career that has been trashed. Pain over huge child support debts that can never be repaid. Pain over a life where I will never be able to have any sort of financial security or retirement. Pain over the fact that I will never know my grandchildren. Pain over excruciating loneliness.

The worst times are weekends and holidays. Weekends and holidays were mine and my son’s best times together. When I see fathers with sons I feel an overwhelming sadness: a sadness of what has been lost; what is not; and what could have been.

Also I am permanently changed. No amount of therapy, psychotropic drugs, or a new woman and child can remove the hollowness inside me. I notice the effect when I am around people. I used to be happy and fulfilled; now I am empty and depressed, and people notice it and they don’t want to be around me. It is impossible for me to smile and I get no pleasure from anything; not even eating. I have no present and no future.

Am I a loser? I was an example of someone who raised themselves from nothing to something though hard work. I put myself through college; earned a scholarship, and worked many crappy jobs before I finally landed a good one. Through thrift, I managed to save a tidy nest egg. I never had any problems with the law. But because my wife became unhappily married, I am made to be a criminal, even though I tried to keep the marriage together.

Now I don’t have a car, I don’t have a drivers license, I don’t have a girl friend, and I live in a small and shitty room. I earn a fifth of what I earned before. I have a very difficult time holding a job because of depression.

I am a Christian; so I am afraid of committing suicide. Nevertheless, I often research suicide to see if there is some justification for it; some way to do it, without going to hell. I want out of my life; I would not want to wish my life on my worst enemy. It is a life that is not worth living.

I pray every day for some guidance and purpose of what I am supposed to do; I don’t get any answers.

Where did I go wrong? Was it the wrong choice of a woman? My wife was very religious and a virgin when we met. She never smoked a cigarette or drank alcohol in her life. She was the most family-oriented person I had ever met. I would never have thought she would have chosen divorce. And if she chose divorce, I would have thought she would have wanted a father in her son’s life. But she changed. Why did she change? I don’t know, but I think because of cultural influences.

Why do I write this? For pity? No. I write this to give young men an idea of what they are facing when they father children in the USA or any other country that imitates the USA court system. When the divorce happens, and it is more likely to happen then not, you will be destroyed emotionally and financially. Your children will suffer. The more responsible, the more loving, the more family-oriented you are, the more you will be destroyed.

Marriage and family is sacred and the greatest gift a man can have. Unfortunately, in the USA, marriage and family have been perverted beyond repair.

For young men, the worst thing you could do is to have children in the USA. For parents of boys, the worst thing you could do is to pressure your sons into having children in the USA. Don’t think it cannot happen to you or your sons.

Is there a solution? Yes. Emigration. Make your money in the states and emigrate out when you are financially able. Then marry and have children in a family-friendly nation and a nation with fairer divorce laws. This is a solution that won’t completely remove the risk of divorce; but will reduce it.

As a man in the USA you have nothing to look forward to. Only the ignorant or the masochistic would think of fathering children there. In the USA fathers are like tightrope walkers without netting. Don’t do it.
You have been warned by someone wandering in hell who lives a life not worth living.

Information and statistics:

States get matching funds from the federal government for every support order they issue; therefore there is an built-in economic incentive against family reconciliation and against shared custody and an economic incentive for sole physical custody.

Presumption of guilt is on the man. If the woman makes any type of emotional or physical abuse claim, the man will be removed from his home and children.

Nine out of ten times the children are given to the woman, no matter how good the man is.

If you fall behind in child support $2500, your passport is denied.

If you fall behind in child support $2500, you drivers license is revoked.

If you are behind and miss payments, you can go to jail for contempt of court.

If you have a history of falling behind on payments, you can be placed in prison.

Because you are in jail does not mean child support payments stop; on the contrary, child support payments continue and arrears continue to build.

In many states, interest is added to arrears at the rate of 10 percent per year.

If you lose your job and get a lesser paying job, the child support agencies will do their best to try to keep the payments the same.

Employers frown on wage garnishment; it is more work for them and they are less likely to hire a divorced man and more likely to exploit one because they know he is desperate.

As your children are stripped away from you and the relationship severed, you will be accused of abandoning your children.

If you have arrears, a child support lien will be placed on your credit report which comes up on background checks rendering you much less employable.

Any type of depression or despondency is used against the man to further remove him from his children, causing yet more depression and despondency.

Non-custodial parents (men) are around three times as likely to commit suicide then the rest of the population.

Men are not entitled to a lawyer in a failure to pay child support court hearing.

50,000 men are in jail or prison every day for child support arrears.

Ever wonder why there are so many homeless men? Do your own street interviews. Ask random homeless men if they ever went through a divorce or the child support system.

A man with children in the USA is like a tightrope walker without netting: the risk-reward profile is life or death.

I don't agree with some of it (like the bit about not having kids in the USA, that's just plain bitterness), but it paints a pretty decent picture of the family law landscape.

No offense, but that guy you quote sounds like a crazy fundie. I'm not disparaging the tragedy of fathers who can't see their children, mind you. It's just that crazy sounding sources do their cause a disfavor

[MetalSlimeHunt]

There is something wrong with this generetion when me and all of my (also) 18 year old friends don't want to get married and have children, ever.

There is nothing wrong with not wanting marriage or children.

[penguinofhonor]

Also I'd like to note the system is way easier on fathers who don't give a fuck about their children. I know one family where the father ignored years of child support and didn't get in a bit of trouble.

It's my opinion that honest fathers suffer mostly because of guys like that, less because of mothers.

[Shadowgandor]

Also I'd like to note the system is way easier on fathers who don't give a fuck about their children. I know one family where the father ignored years of child support and didn't get in a bit of trouble.

It's my opinion that honest fathers suffer mostly because of guys like that, less because of mothers.

They're legally obliged to pay. I wouldn't be surprised if the mother in this case just denies getting the money in order to reduce the chance of the kids wanting to meet up with him.
That or he's gone off the radar or something :p

[Taniec]

No offense, but that guy you quote sounds like a crazy fundie. I'm not disparaging the tragedy of fathers who can't see their children, mind you. It's just that crazy sounding sources do their cause a disfavor

Noted, but does it make his story any less true? I'm sure any one of us would go to crazy town if we literally lost access to a son and there could be psychological ramifications that we really can't begin to understand. It kind of speaks about the humanity of it all. I lost my family and I just don't plain give a fuck anymore.

Also I'd like to note the system is way easier on fathers who don't give a fuck about their children. I know one family where the father ignored years of child support and didn't get in a bit of trouble.

It's my opinion that honest fathers suffer mostly because of guys like that, less because of mothers.

It's usually not that easy to go ghost. There is still wage garnishment and if you have arrears against you the court is able to arrest you and send you to prison since you did not follow a court mandate. As a result, a man could be stuck in jail not making any money except that the child support payments don't stop and just builds up even further. The effect basically snowballs and going to jail put him in an even a worse position.

You can actually see this happen a lot when it comes to fathers who had high-end jobs but ended up losing their position. They in no way can afford their old payments, the courts usually will not allow a decrease in expected payments to a manageable percentage of income, and then off to jail you go. Jobless, less employable, and mounting debt.

[Rooster]

The interesting bit for me is (Polish) government whining that less children are born than expected.
har har har, government obliviousness in my country is amusing.

I've been noting this tendency for a while now. Gevernment does something to "fix" a problem, but it does exactly the opposite. It screws everything up, and THEY DON'T KNOW WHY.

Another thing to report is a phenomenon in Japan. Japan has stopped imposing gender identities on men. The result? Men don't want to pursue "traditional" japanese corporate high-paying jobs, and finding a wife. Instead some men become something called in translation "grass eating men", that have low-paying jobs and are not interested in women. It totally screws japan over, because their population is steadily decreasing, and funny enough, they don't know why. Read about it here:

http://www.shavemagazine.com/politics/The-Soushoku-Danshi/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbivore_men
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/foreigners/2009/06/the_herbivores_dilemma.html

[Il Palazzo]

People need to make babies because of Bismarck, god damn the smug bastard.

[Graebeard]

Kogan, to the extent you are still looking for advice for the situation you describe, let me provide you with my two bits:

Bit 1: Get a lawyer.  IIAL.  This is an unfortunate necessity when someone you're in conflict with retains a lawyer.  The U.S. legal system is complex and based upon rules that have been building on each other literally since before the founding of this country.  A good lawyer will know how to exploit this complexity in their client's favor.  You need the same expertise, at a minimum, in order to avoid falling into any common traps.  Imagine that you and the person you're in conflict knew nothing about DF and agreed to resolve your dispute by playing a game to see who could last longer.  Imagine the advantage if one side had a Bay12er on their side.  Our legal system may not be as complex, but I doubt it is any more intuitive than DF, and you need someone to summarize the equivalent of dwarven hydrodynamics for you.

Bit 2: Do everything you can to keep the lawyers out.  Family lawyers don't solve problems.  They help clean up as much as possible when there is no solution.  The only way to really fix problems with personal relationships is to take responsibility for doing whatever it takes to fix it yourself.  This will likely mean doing a lot of things you don't want to do, and will certainly be unpleasant.  Be conciliatory even when you don't want to be.  Listen to people quietly when they're being completely unreasonable.  Recognize their point of view, demonstrate that to them, and then communicate your position calmly, quietly and reasonably even if your blood pressure is through the roof.  In the end, if you're going to court you've already lost, no matter how good your case or how great a lawyer you have.

[Truean]

.

[Kogan Loloklam]

I already fought and lost my court battles. I was a stay at home dad ineligable to work for awhile. I had no money for a lawyer. She ended up getting sole education and religion decisionmaking, and living in my home until It forcloses in lieu of child support. And so naturally I am "a deadbeat who doesn't pay child support", even as I poured thousands of dollars into keeping the home so my son had a place to live. It backfired on her though, and the state is coming after me to modify child support. She has to leave, and I owe her about a quarter of the mortgage payment in cash. This isn't about me though. Its about the rights of my family. Checking my posting history will show this isn't my first concern. I passed the pertanient info on to my ex father in law, and we'll see how things go.

It sucks that I can't do a thing for my son as he tells me voluntarilly and without probing how his mom treats him, and that his begging me to "keep him" has to fall on deaf ears or I go to jail. My biggest hope is he survives to 13, when I can hire a lawyer for him to emancipate himself. I am not counting on it though. It is sad, but how the world works. I just hope something can be done so his grandparents can see him occasionally too.

Anyway. Thanks for the advice.

[penguinofhonor]

Also I'd like to note the system is way easier on fathers who don't give a fuck about their children. I know one family where the father ignored years of child support and didn't get in a bit of trouble.

It's my opinion that honest fathers suffer mostly because of guys like that, less because of mothers.

They're legally obliged to pay. I wouldn't be surprised if the mother in this case just denies getting the money in order to reduce the chance of the kids wanting to meet up with him.
That or he's gone off the radar or something :p

I would be surprised, considering the luxuries she forgoes and extra work she does to raise two kids, one of which has pretty significant medical bills.

And he's on the radar. He still owes the money, they've kept track of it and gone to court over it several times. He got a slap on the wrist every time, so eventually they just stopped trying.

And the kids don't want to meet up with him. He was physically and emotionally abusive. And before you pull up the whole "mom with custody talks trash about the dad", these opinions were formed before the divorce when he did stuff like fly into fits of rage and destroy furniture.

[ChairmanPoo]

Lets not forget that the reason child support is there is that many did not pay it

[Kogan Loloklam]

You know, this is a horrible thing to say, but with the women having a right to chose to have the baby...

End welfare and child support requirements and I'll bet there is never a problem with fighting for father's rights to time with their children again.

People chose to have kids. If they can't support them with their own family structure, too bad. Punish failure instead of rewarding stupidity.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Plenty of people don't choose to have kids. It can be a life-destroying event.