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[Cathar]

But objectively speaking, you are selfish and inefficient.

The only viable excuse

Stopping you right there, I have no excuse to give to you. I'm saying it works and it does. Jesus christ.

Edit : Seriously, doubt me. You don't have to believe me, but having to reexplain everything ten times is becoming bothersome.

You do not need Stomp if you have plague arcane. I can stunlock everyone I want, whenever I want, and not pay the 100 energy fee for that. Yes, you come accross a tipping point against armored ennemies at some point, no, roar won't do shit against it.

As for enemy EHP, it's mostly a product of armor. Shield and HP proper scale innefisciently, making the grineer totally overpowered in HL without the proper equipment. That's basic stuff. You get corrosive projection when you go against grineer, and EHP goes down, but I totally fail to understand the relevance of that point here. You need to deal with armor, sure.

Also I missed this

and enemy EHP scales to the point that you need viral+slash procs and similar types of infinite/high scaling in your cell's bag of tricks to keep killing things.

Viral is ok, safe for opportunity cost. It gives you 1 high value attack per ennemy, then it's totally useless, and leaves you with a 50% HP enemy you have to deal with, with one proc on your tool shed becoming dead weight.
Slash was extremely good due to a bug that allowed every pellet to proc when fired from a shotgun with 100% status chance. So you fire a tigris loaded to the mouth with multifire, and there you go, everything dies. This has been patched out and caused the rise of the sea level. Slash by itself does, over time 30% (don't quote me on the number) of the damages of the attacked that proc'd it. When your base attack is reduced, so is the output of slash proc. In effect, it's a flat 30% damage increase, when it procs, and when it does proc it means it won't proc anything else, making it subpar to, for exemple, a 30% increase in attack speed, which does the same thing, except it keeps your combo bar growing and depending on your build, can have effects you're looking for. Not saying viral+slash is bad, plague arcane deals viral damage and my zaw deals mostly slash, but I do not rely on their procs to be effective.

In my experience, crit weapons scale far, far, far better than status based weapons. Feel free to disagree. I'm not even saying my way of playing is the best, I'm saying it works wonders which is factually correct, and you'll pardon me for disliking being called names for that.

[wereboar]

I'm talking level 300 enemies

Dude, do you claim you can consistently one-shot 300 level enemies?
Please share your loadout because you're probably the first person to reach those results.

As for damage buffs...seriously 20% damage increase for a limited time does not even start to compare with the value you get from a crit based weapon which multiplies your output by 10 or so. If it was valkyr's increased strike rate, yeah why not. But for 1.5 the cost of an iron skin, you certainly don't get 1.5 of its value, that's for sure.

The buff is 50% unmodded. 120% on an average Rhino build. Both ranged and melee weapon damage. For all four frames. For a minute.
This is probably the best party buff in the game.

Edit2 : But maybe you need some proof I know what I'm talking about, so ...

Not so much proof as actual knowledge.
If you're not grossly exaggerrating your reults, your build must be insane. I really want to see it and go try one-shot some 300 level mooks.

[Cathar]

No, I can kill level 300 mobs before I run into problems. That's my hard limit, or so it was last time I tested it. In my last arbitration survival I came to OS level 140 grineers and never ran into any problem. If it gives an indication of my power level.

This is probably the best party buff in the game.

And I don't use it, but for sure, I'll take screens next time I'm logging in, probably this afternoon. Actually it bothers me more than it should. Have them right now instead and judge to your heart content.

So, the frame has a maxxed out armor and is meant to take the bullet I can't always avoid :


The vectis uses the "last bullet in charger does insane damages" mod, while having a single bullet charger in case I need a damage burst. I'm not satisfied with it and it can use some tweaking, but I use it against bosses and it works just fine.


And the rivened cyath is what the whole build is made around. Riven adds critical damages, brute damage and range, while reducing status chances

[Flying Dice]

and enemy EHP scales to the point that you need viral+slash procs and similar types of infinite/high scaling in your cell's bag of tricks to keep killing things.

Viral is ok, safe for opportunity cost. It gives you 1 high value attack per ennemy, then it's totally useless, and leaves you with a 50% HP enemy you have to deal with, with one proc on your tool shed becoming dead weight.

So you also don't understand how viral works, okay.

One viral proc reduces target current and max HP by 50%. Against something with 1k HP, that's not much. Against something with 5 million HP, you're effectively doing 2.5mil damage with a single proc. That's why percentage-based stuff is good: it never stops scaling. General rule of thumb is that scaling damage and debuffs start mattering when you stop being able to kill things by breathing on them.

Furthermore, it ignores the most common types of damage mitigation (armor, shields, ability nullification). Viral is the single most efficient and reliable status proc in the game.

Slash was extremely good due to a bug that allowed every pellet to proc when fired from a shotgun with 100% status chance. So you fire a tigris loaded to the mouth with multifire, and there you go, everything dies. This has been patched out and caused the rise of the sea level. Slash by itself does, over time 30% (don't quote me on the number) of the damages of the attacked that proc'd it. When your base attack is reduced, so is the output of slash proc. In effect, it's a flat 30% damage increase, when it procs, and when it does proc it means it won't proc anything else, making it subpar to, for exemple, a 30% increase in attack speed, which does the same thing, except it keeps your combo bar growing and depending on your build, can have effects you're looking for. Not saying viral+slash is bad, plague arcane deals viral damage and my zaw deals mostly slash, but I do not rely on their procs to be effective.

You also don't understand how slash works. I know how the shotgun bug went, and that was not why people used slash.

First: it, like viral, ignores the most common types of damage mitigation. Let me give you the straight numbers: a Lv.150 corrupted bombard has ~5.17mil EHP. It only has ~96k actual HP. A viral proc will reduce that to ~48k. All it takes then is one or two good slash procs to kill it (or a bunch of small ones from Soma P or whatever). With a pure crit build you would run out of ammo before you killed that single enemy. Even with a corrosive build it'll take far longer to strip the majority of that armor.

This is why Dread has always been so heavily used relative to other bows: you can pretty easily set up a oneshot build that can kill enemies on that level of scaling with one pull (or two, if you get unlucky with your procs). This is also why the Atterax memeing strike build was so busted before they nerfed a bunch of aspects of it: you could sweep through maps hitting entire rooms with red crit slash procs; anything that didn't die outright just from the high combo counter red crits would die from the bleeds.

In my experience, crit weapons scale far, far, far better than status based weapons. Feel free to disagree. I'm not even saying my way of playing is the best, I'm saying it works wonders which is factually correct, and you'll pardon me for disliking being called names for that.

Then your experience is sharply limited to relatively easy content. Endgame has always been about a mix of crit, status, and CC. Crit isn't bad, but crit alone falls off hard. You use the higher raw damage from crit in conjunction with the various forms of damage mitigation reduction/removal/avoidance to kill things efficiently.

And, past a certain point, you can't oneshot much of anything without highly specific builds. Yeah, sure, my rivened AS Opticor can hit six figure damage numbers, but that doesn't make it efficient in most use cases.

pre-e: re: screenshots:

#1. Bullshit. Complete and utter bullshit. My Rhino P has more armor than that and IS starts falling off by ~round 3 of High Index.

#2. "It works against bosses" is not "it stays efficient up to very high levels". This is my Eidolon hunter when I get bored of Vectis P:



Yeah, it can do 6-figure damage to rando mid-level enemies, but I wouldn't use it for anything serious because it's too situational.

#3. Aaand I can hit near-equivalent stats with a 1-forma no-Riven Guandao. Again, anything can be a low-level blender.

Man, this really isn't about "your stuff sucks", it's about you overstating how useful it is against difficult content combined with telling people to walk into the Rhino newb trap.

[Cathar]

Of course opticor is situational, do you really need to write a novel to tell me that? Good lord.
My build is not situational and works against everything the game has to offer. Sure, it can't be used to show how big your dick is by allowing you to waste three hours of your time in god knows what survival mission, but doing so is idiotic to begin with, and very far from new player considerations anyway.

#1. Bullshit. Complete and utter bullshit. My Rhino P has more armor than that and IS starts falling off by ~round 3 of High Index

I can do 10 rounds of high level index without breaking a sweat, maybe the frame aint the problem.

Edit 3: Holy shit I'm tired. You're right. For some reason I had Simaris' simulation in mind. Gomen. I survived one hour on the index, but I had a good team, and it was before that "rounds" updates, you'd keep playing until you ran out of time.

Edit : Yes, I know my vectis sucks balls. I'll give you that, and I screened it for the sake of honesty. I need to tweek it a lot but I feel I can make something out of it. Until then, it is acceptable for the function I give to it.

Edit 2 : Correct me if I'm wrong, but about damage mitigation ; do people really try to work around having to use corrosive projection ? It's straightforward and strips the enemy of his armor. Are you completely sure that slash procs ignore armor ? As for ability nullification, I am totally unaffected, and shield scales up really badly. Shield is just additional HP that have no mitigation on, and do not warrant me to try to go around. I'm better served by just eating it. The only relevant damage mitigation to me is armor.

[Teneb]

Toxic procs ignores shields, but not armour.

Slash procs ignores shields AND armour. It is basically pure damage.

[Cathar]

Aight, need to check some stuff then. Really if I'm wrong, it's for the best.

Okay, just for the sake of disclosure, please tell me how much you spent on that game. A rough estimation would suffice. If you're a f2p player, I'll say straight up I'm impressed. If you're whaling your way to HL and, on that basis, discouraging players from builds that can carry them during 1k odd hours of game, much less so.

[Folly]

Shield is just additional HP that have no mitigation on, and do not warrant me to try to go around. I'm better served by just eating it. The only relevant damage mitigation to me is armor.

If you want to criticize shields in comparison to armor, that's completely fair. Armor has a synergy with hp that shields simply can't match when getting hit hard.
But it is worth noting that Shields regenerate in a way that hp does not. A shield frame who gets hurt only has to drop out of combat for a few seconds and he's ready to go again, where hp builds are reliant on uncommon orb drops or unique frame abilities when they need to recover.

[Rex_Nex]

While that's true, the default shield recharge speed is awfully slow, as well as having to drop combat in a game with largely infinite combat missions being somewhat ineffective. HP recovery is really not an issue - Life Strike and Healing Return make any build with significant life and a decent melee weapon practically immortal, while Medi-Ray allows you to begin every engagement at full HP. Shields are rarely used currently, and those frames that do use it almost all have a way to quickly or instantly recharge their entire shield without any investment (i.e Mag or Trinity).

Shields really should recharge much faster, but the main issue is the incredible power of armor scaling (which you mentioned) and lifesteal.

[milo christiansen]

#1 best source of healing in the game, is Magus Elevate. Lifesteal works, but only up to a point, Medi-Ray is too slow.

As for health vs shields: Shields are better at low level content where you take lots of minor chip damage. Health is better at mid levels where you take real hits. Not getting hit is the only option at high levels, since enemies will friggin one-shot you. The number of players who actually play anything high level is really low though.

As for crit vs status: Crit is better at low to mid levels since you just one-shot everything. Once you can no longer one-shot everything you need status. Of course by that point you also need a carefully constructed group or you will just get shot and die.

[MrRoboto75]

But if I use my amprex I get both : D

[Zangi]

When you can't kill Trinity at the Junction normally cause her bow basically 2-3 shots you and 100 headshot damage from a charged bow shot barely moves the shield bar.

Solution is fisticuffs.

[Cathar]

If you want to criticize shields in comparison to armor, that's completely fair. Armor has a synergy with hp that shields simply can't match when getting hit hard.
But it is worth noting that Shields regenerate in a way that hp does not.

True, I was talking about enemy shields, which do not regenerate. You can make shields working on your frames, but corpus can't really. For enemies, it's a question of EHP, the higher you go in enemy levels, the more value they get from their armor. Their shields also increase, but can't really keep up, which make the HL grineer much, much stronger than their corpus counterpart. You can always chew through shield, not so much through armor

[Teneb]

If you want to criticize shields in comparison to armor, that's completely fair. Armor has a synergy with hp that shields simply can't match when getting hit hard.
But it is worth noting that Shields regenerate in a way that hp does not.

True, I was talking about enemy shields, which do not regenerate. You can make shields working on your frames, but corpus can't really. For enemies, it's a question of EHP, the higher you go in enemy levels, the more value they get from their armor. Their shields also increase, but can't really keep up, which make the HL grineer much, much stronger than their corpus counterpart. You can always chew through shield, not so much through armor

Enemy shields do regenerate, but unless there's a shield osprey or similar it takes a long, long time. There are a few exceptions like the Eidolons and the Profit-Taker, of course, where it doesn't regen on its own.

[beorn080]

The main issue with shields as health for the enemy is magnetic exists, which pretty much removes the shields flat out, or toxin and slash procs simply bypass them anyway.