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[Teneb]

Really? Only for the 2? All it takes is one sneaky scrambus and down you go. Not to mention that Rhino is a great buffing frame. It's like picking Mesa and ignoring all her abilities to spam Peacemaker. Or Frost and his bubble, and so on.

[Cathar]

I never met a scrambus I can't one-shot, and iron skin only costs 50. Null bubbles are...lowkey a problem because I have to bump on them a couple times, but unless they are very high level, I just jump on it and rely on my massive bigass iron fibered armor to one shot the dude (corpus have no armor = critbase weapon fodder) then relaunch my iron skin. No problem at all. IF they are high level, I need to stun them with my plague arcaned zaw before hammering the bubble out.

That's the thing with Rhino : even without his overpowered iron skin, he's still an iron cookie to chew, and even if you can somehow remove it, it's dirt cheap to relaunch

But yeah, the other abilities of Rhino are just lackluster :

His 1 is just a way to move faster and/or to knock down opponents. It's made obsolete by the plague arcane and it costs half an iron skin to use. It's arguably usable when chained, but come on. How many iron skin do you need to waste just to make use of a bad skill.
His 3 ... is just a damage buffer. My damages are already insane and scale up with the enemies. Enemy HP is not what stops you at high level ; what stops you is enemies OSing you or insane grineer armor
His 4 is good, but like all abilities, is stopped by the same thing that stops Iron Skin, namely the null bubbles. It costs 2 iron skins and I will always get more value of 2 single iron skins than of a moderately effective crowd control

[Zangi]

Eh, as a noobie joining into high level games... I find that melee is the best way to deal any damage. 
It also allows you to 1v1 most things that don't have anti-melee skills, since you effectively stunlock them.

As for survival, standing still will usually get you killed.  Keep moving, bring out your melee weapon and hold block if you are in a firefight.  You don't want to be in a firefight.

Get carried.

[spazyak]

For a noobie in survival:
Get the whole twitch prime and amazon thing, you can do a free trial for it if you need to and grab Trinity prime.
Play Trinity
Run around
spam 2,1,3 in that order
run off and hit 4 if you are in dire straights.
Your team will love you

[wereboar]

I think you're missing some actual endgame experience, Cathar. It's sort of obvious if you say that you one-shot everything and see no utility in strong CC abilities and a straight damage buff.
Iron skin is actually Rhino's least valuable ability once you learn to play and start to rely on your skill rather than armour.

[Folly]

Rhino's Charge gains a lot of usefulness when augmented, as it can multiply the effect of Iron Skin several fold.

[AzyWng]

Multiply it how? Increase the durability of it somehow or something?

[Cathar]

I think you're missing some actual endgame experience, Cathar. It's sort of obvious if you say that you one-shot everything and see no utility in strong CC abilities and a straight damage buff.
Iron skin is actually Rhino's least valuable ability once you learn to play and start to rely on your skill rather than armour.

I'm talking level 300 enemies, but I'm aware some players go further

Edit : Just launch iron skin when you're in the middle of enemy fire, you won't need the synergy with charge as enduring fire shortly after casting boosts the value of your iron skin.

I really see no point in "strong CC". Plague Arcane gives you all the CC you need, except if you are surrounded, in which case you already did something wrong. Plague arcane bypasses null bubbles, Rhino Stomp doesn't. The only use I see for Rhino Stop is, you are surrounded by enemies that cannot kill you within casting time, which is not a situation you should ever find yourself in, in endgame.

As for damage buffs...seriously 20% damage increase for a limited time does not even start to compare with the value you get from a crit based weapon which multiplies your output by 10 or so. If it was valkyr's increased strike rate, yeah why not. But for 1.5 the cost of an iron skin, you certainly don't get 1.5 of its value, that's for sure.

Edit2 : But maybe you need some proof I know what I'm talking about, so ...

[Teneb]

As for damage buffs...seriously 20% damage increase for a limited time does not even start to compare with the value you get from a crit based weapon which multiplies your output by 10 or so. If it was valkyr's increased strike rate, yeah why not. But for 1.5 the cost of an iron skin, you certainly don't get 1.5 of its value, that's for sure.

A max-level Rhino gives 50% damage increase base. It can go higher based on your Power. Furthermore, the damage is MULTIPLICATIVE, so it's extra good. Taking an example from the wiki, if you use a max-ranked intesify, roar and shoot with a weapon that normally deals 250 damage per shot, it will deal 412.5 damage instead. And that's for your whole damn team. This ALSO affect ability damage (not ability strength, just damage), meaning that you can turn allied warframes that can deal big damage with ability into even bigger room-clearers.

[Flying Dice]

I think you're missing some actual endgame experience, Cathar. It's sort of obvious if you say that you one-shot everything and see no utility in strong CC abilities and a straight damage buff.
Iron skin is actually Rhino's least valuable ability once you learn to play and start to rely on your skill rather than armour.

I'm talking level 300 enemies, but I'm aware some players go further

Edit : Just launch iron skin when you're in the middle of enemy fire, you won't need the synergy with charge as enduring fire shortly after casting boosts the value of your iron skin.

I really see no point in "strong CC". Plague Arcane gives you all the CC you need, except if you are surrounded, in which case you already did something wrong. Plague arcane bypasses null bubbles, Rhino Stomp doesn't. The only use I see for Rhino Stop is, you are surrounded by enemies that cannot kill you within casting time, which is not a situation you should ever find yourself in, in endgame

I'm seriously inclined to doubt your experience when you're dismissing damage buffs and CC panic buttons as worthless and championing pretty much the only damage mitigation ability where the augment is required for any sort of dangerous play.

(Stomp isn't for you, it's for when you need to save someone who screwed up.)

Regardless, the fundamental problem with Rhino is that he's a newb trap: good enough to let anyone with half a brain walk over starchart content, only to trip when they start hitting skillchecks that require them to know how to avoid damage without pressing 2. He's my go-to frame for when I want to be maximum lazy and just spin through maps without really paying attention, but I almost never take him for anything that requires real thought (or useful abilities).

The only real role Rhino fills other than "I'm lazy and potentially selfish depending on whether I built any range" is the damage buffer for Eidolons if you don't like Chroma.

In real endgame there are two gods: hard CC and not getting hit. Rhino prevents people from figuring out the latter by letting them get away with slow reactions, bad positioning, mistiming, &c. in ways that most other frames don't... but only up until the point where any mistake will get you oneshot.

Honestly I'm just sad that T4D/T4S aren't a thing any more. Nothing now combines the incentives of greed and difficulty the way long tower runs did. :/

[MrRoboto75]

Multiply it how? Increase the durability of it somehow or something?

Charge augment gives you bonus armor when you charge people.  Iron Skin scales off of your armor.

Although if your going through the trouble of getting rhino augments, the Iron Skin one that lets you shed/reset it on command is better IMO.

[Cathar]

Such aggressivity and pettiness is uncharacteristic of bay12. Please doubt my experience as much as you want, even tho I layed down the rationale and gave you a screenshot of my magnifiscent achievement poster, but understand that if you can lie to other, lying to yourself only ampers your own progression. Sure, if you know better, that's good for you. Do better, you have all my support.

I mean I know it is possible to play a Rhino with heavy focus on skill, you just don't factor in the opportunity cost. Yeah you can put a ton of mods to make roar a viable skill, at the cost of another mod, more useful, that doesn't cost you 75 energy every time you want to hit something. Yeah, you can spam roar/stomp every ten seconds, if you're paired with a Nekros or have a team of players who use energy regen aura, at the cost of being paired with more useful frames in endgame.

Now warframe is a game where you can custom working builds pretty much how you want. If you can make a skill rhino work in endgame, franckly it's all for the better but that's not what I do.

I do prefer to use Rhino as I layed it before you ; as an unstoppable tank which, paired with a critbased weapon, can cut through pretty much anything.

As for "Rhino who doesn't support etc". I'm not playing as a support, I'm playing as a tank/carry. If a player fucked up that bad he needs to rely on another player ultimate to stay alive, that's not the fault of the tank, really.

[Folly]

Iron Skin and Roar both benefit from the same Ability Strength mods, so it's not like you have to choose one or the other. Even with conservative mods, Rhino's Roar should still more than double the damage output of the entire team's weapons and abilities. If that's just not your preferred playstyle then fine, you gotta do you. But objectively speaking, you are selfish and inefficient.

The only viable excuse I can see for playing Rhino and not keeping Roar up fulltime is mana. But it is extremely rare for me to see an endgame team that doesn't have at least one manafeed, much less an effective team.

[MrRoboto75]

I have a range/power stomp build for the lols, mostly so I can clear tiles in a single button press on lower level missions.

Personally I almost never use Roar.  Half of it is cause I forget about it entirely, but also because my weapons are pretty fucking devastating without any buffs, wielded by any frame.  If damage is really an issue, either its cause the gun isn't fully leveled modded right, or its because of enemy level scaling probably with metric tons of armor, in which case just taking corrosive guns or projection is probably a better investment of resources.

Enemies already die near instantly, so I rarely even notice a dmg buff from rhino or mesa.

[Flying Dice]

Iron Skin and Roar both benefit from the same Ability Strength mods, so it's not like you have to choose one or the other. Even with conservative mods, Rhino's Roar should still more than double the damage output of the entire team's weapons and abilities. If that's just not your preferred playstyle then fine, you gotta do you. But objectively speaking, you are selfish and inefficient.

The only viable excuse I can see for playing Rhino and not keeping Roar up fulltime is mana. But it is extremely rare for me to see an endgame team that doesn't have at least one manafeed, much less an effective team.

You still gotta throw on some range to make Roar effective as a team buff. Goodness knows randoms have a hard time staying in affinity range, let alone the sort of Roar range you get if you don't slap on a bit extra. The only time I really feel comfortable without is when I'm running with a cell of people I trust to stick close when I need to refresh.

Such aggressivity and pettiness is uncharacteristic of bay12. Please doubt my experience as much as you want, even tho I layed down the rationale and gave you a screenshot of my magnifiscent achievement poster, but understand that if you can lie to other, lying to yourself only ampers your own progression. Sure, if you know better, that's good for you. Do better, you have all my support.

Pointing out mistakes in your reasoning isn't aggressive or petty.

I mean I know it is possible to play a Rhino with heavy focus on skill, you just don't factor in the opportunity cost. Yeah you can put a ton of mods to make roar a viable skill, at the cost of another mod, more useful, that doesn't cost you 75 energy every time you want to hit something. Yeah, you can spam roar/stomp every ten seconds, if you're paired with a Nekros or have a team of players who use energy regen aura, at the cost of being paired with more useful frames in endgame.

Using more than one ability on your frame isn't a "heavy focus on skill", it's "knowing how the frame works". Roar scales off of AbStr, which I would hope you're using on Rhino. You honestly don't even need duration, I run with 75% on my general-purpose build and that's still 22.5s on Roar. If you actually take Primed Cont you're out at 39s. The default duration is 30s. It's this lack of basic knowledge about the kit of one of the most popular frames, which you profess to use extensively, which makes people doubt your experience.

That aside, in any sort of mission environment where IS is actually necessary to stay alive, you're going to be manually refreshing that every 10s or so anyways (varying based on how good you are at dodging).

Now warframe is a game where you can custom working builds pretty much how you want. If you can make a skill rhino work in endgame, franckly it's all for the better but that's not what I do.

Yes, in most normal content you can run basically anything and get away with it. Nobody's telling you not to.

I do prefer to use Rhino as I layed it before you ; as an unstoppable tank which, paired with a critbased weapon, can cut through pretty much anything.

In real endgame content there's no such thing as either an unstoppable tank or purely crit weapon-based DPS. Thanks to how scaling works, you eventually hit a tipping point where if you're not either not being hit or in an invulnerable state you will die, and enemy EHP scales to the point that you need viral+slash procs and similar types of infinite/high scaling in your cell's bag of tricks to keep killing things.

The only thing that's changed is that there's no longer any real incentive to run missions for 3+ hours.

As for "Rhino who doesn't support etc". I'm not playing as a support, I'm playing as a tank/carry. If a player fucked up that bad he needs to rely on another player ultimate to stay alive, that's not the fault of the tank, really.

Please for the love of god don't think about WF in MOBA terms. It really, really does not transfer over. Especially in terms of "ultimates". If I ever catch someone talking about "holding" Blessing I'm going to reach through their screen to slap them.


An aside: Frost was and still is the god of defense spam because you can refresh globe without needing to cancel it. As long as your cell can keep killing dudes before they get inside and you don't run out of energy, you stay invulnerable forever.