Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Kagus]

Just had a rather crazy experience...  Was mucking around with that Chaos game where I'd beaten Death, and decided to see what all kind of trouble I could get myself into.  Besides, of the three remaining faiths beside my own, my archnemeses the Order worshipers were still going strong!  That has to be remedied!

I sent a little group I'd originally hashed together to stop the rampant bandit raids going on in Earth's territory to go on a little scouting trip.  I took the village on the border between Order and Earth, and then on a whim went a little closer to see what all was going on.

And that's when the mercenary horde appeared.  Out of the darkness beyond my view, a huge and rather uncreative army of 9 full crossbowmen squads, lead by 3 rangers stormed down upon my marauder patrol.  A level 2 magician, three shamblers, a dwarven warrior, and three rider groups.  I was toast.

...or at least I would've been, had we not stopped directly on a little patch of mountainous terrain, and had I not been a strategic GENIUS who commanded his troops to wield their lances from the non-stabby ends!  Instead, I trounced the whole lot of them while sustaining only minor sufferances, including a couple individuals dropping off one of the rider groups.

I was actually really quite impressed with myself for having not only fought off that entire army, but having done it on the first try while grievously outnumbered and without any real magic support...  Hell, I was rollin' like a stone!  And I was just about to pat myself on the back, wheeeeen...   The second group arrived, identical to the first in size, composition, and bloodlust.

Wound up losing a shambler, and now the rest of that party is in shambles.  Still though, rather impressed with myself.

[Duuvian]

Just had a rather crazy experience...  Was mucking around with that Chaos game where I'd beaten Death, and decided to see what all kind of trouble I could get myself into.  Besides, of the three remaining faiths beside my own, my archnemeses the Order worshipers were still going strong!  That has to be remedied!

I sent a little group I'd originally hashed together to stop the rampant bandit raids going on in Earth's territory to go on a little scouting trip.  I took the village on the border between Order and Earth, and then on a whim went a little closer to see what all was going on.

And that's when the mercenary horde appeared.  Out of the darkness beyond my view, a huge and rather uncreative army of 9 full crossbowmen squads, lead by 3 rangers stormed down upon my marauder patrol.  A level 2 magician, three shamblers, a dwarven warrior, and three rider groups.  I was toast.

...or at least I would've been, had we not stopped directly on a little patch of mountainous terrain, and had I not been a strategic GENIUS who commanded his troops to wield their lances from the non-stabby ends!  Instead, I trounced the whole lot of them while sustaining only minor sufferances, including a couple individuals dropping off one of the rider groups.

I was actually really quite impressed with myself for having not only fought off that entire army, but having done it on the first try while grievously outnumbered and without any real magic support...  Hell, I was rollin' like a stone!  And I was just about to pat myself on the back, wheeeeen...   The second group arrived, identical to the first in size, composition, and bloodlust.

Wound up losing a shambler, and now the rest of that party is in shambles.  Still though, rather impressed with myself.

Nicely done.

[Kagus]

Same to you on that city defense.

Again, I'm a little hesitant to go for GS5, as some of the changes seem...  Peculiar.  Like the axe-tossing horsemen.  I'm sure it works out just fine, and that would actually make it even more viable with a barbarian horde mentality due to the melee units not blocking each other (and yes, some form of difference between the Chaos and Fire melee units would be nice, as so far as I can tell, they are in fact identical aside from name and picture).  Just sounds a bit odd.  But, again, I really just have to try it before forming any real opinions.

As I described a couple posts back though, Air's eagles aren't really that bad...  I wound up sending that same party into another scuffle and the eagles wound up in the thick of it.  They didn't do much damage, but the centaurs never got much chance to fight back as the eagles would just keep interrupting them.  Although if you went up against something with a bit thicker armor I can see a problem forming...  Guess that's when you're supposed to bring in the giants.  It's also worth noting that Air is the only faith in the game that can put together a 100% flying party from basic recruitable troops and champions.

I do like Earth though, for a number of reasons.  Not a huge fan of their speed, but hey...  At least they can do something once they get to a place.  I used to think that the halfling burglars were another one of those "soft points" that Earth used to pay for their good frontline troops, but then I realized that they boast the best stealth in the game alongside their rivals, the faeries.  The magicians, however, have always seemed like the weak link in Earthen parties...  They've got some great spells, but they don't seem to do that well on the battlefield, with low mana stores and pathetic survivability.  I remember one time when there was a drained gnomish magician wandering around alone that got into a punching match with a dragonfly...  And lost.


I'm still trying to work out how to pull off Fire.  Just seems like they got boned with a lot of their troops.  But, I guess it's the same problem as with Chaos, and I just need to get used to using low-defense/high-attack units.

[RedKing]

Definitely one of those "awesome concept, but RIDICULOUSLY UNBALANCED" type things. Not that steamrolling everything with nothing but elven archers isn't amusing at times, but...

So yeah, a proper sequel could have been awesome, and I'm not aware of anything that quite matches it spiritually (though several are similar).

Age of Wonders series. Good amount of similarities, although I did like LoM's resource system somewhat better. AoW's combat is light-years beyond though.

Yeah, LoM was the game that finally got me to say, "You know what? FUCK YOU, SIERRA."

[Kagus]

Funny, never really saw much similarity between the two...  Still don't, really.  Maybe you'd like to clarify that one for me?  I mean, MASTER of magic and AoW, sure...  But game-wise I'm not seeing the deep connection.

Hehe, yeah, combat in AoW was actually...  Sensible.  And fairly solid.

[EuchreJack]

Fire is all about dealing damage.  Their mages are quite powerful once they've researched a bit.

The race I don't understand how to use is Order.

[Kagus]

Right, the mages are amazing (at higher levels/research, and with the forge bonus)...  Some devastating spells and very decent HP for a mage, so they don't die if you're not coddling them every second.  But the standard units kind get knocked on a bit...

You've got the same problem with the Fire barracks units as the Chaos ones, in that they're all glass cannons that aren't the easiest to use unless you've got great numeric superiority and some decent micro skillz.  This is probably because the barracks units are the exact same units, aside from the champion and ship (which Chaos actually trumps).  I was always a bit saddened that Fire didn't get their own unique infantry unit...  I like Fire.

As for ranged units, they're granted a thief champion who can hide about as well as a hippo with irritable bowel syndrome (apparently they're not half bad at shooting though, so there's that), and a ranged unit who's really quite impressively good...  If he weren't single-unit instead of the three-unit deal every other faith gets, meaning that while he is very good on a unit-by-unit comparison...  He has to carry the weight of three archers firing three projectiles.  That changes things.

Their magic units, on the other hand...  Well now we're talking.  Expensive as balls, but Fire delivers.  Elementals, demons, dragons and the legendary Fafnir all put down some very respectable smackdown.


Order is actually quite decent.  They've got some brilliant support spells that help out their standard troops (heroic demise is *brutal* if used properly), and the standard troops are nothing to sneer at on their own.  Order units have quite high armor, even at low levels, which means they can just shrug off a number of attacks and keep carrying on.  Combined with decent attack values and okay movement speed, Order provides a rather solid attack force that lends itself wonderfully to longer war campaigns due to low attrition.  Their cavalry units are just all-round superior to the infantry, and are the only basic troops in the game that can be upgraded to level 6 (via knighthood).  Crossbowmen are okay, putting out some very painful damage, but they've only got moderate range and firing speed, so they're best just sitting back and supporting the frontliners while the wall of armor out there stops the horde.

Also, best capital resource enhancement spell.  Inspiration increases ALL production by 1.  However, I've never quite figured out the perfect way to give them a good jumpstart in the game...

[Duuvian]

Order is good in that it's average I think. Everything is pretty much average; archers are slow shooting but strong, infantry is all around slightly weaker than something else, and the cavalry is pretty good. It's one of the few faiths that can build a good army made up of only it's faith.

As for fire; the ranged sucks but would be good with 2 in a stack (I think it's that way in GS5); I wish the infantry was 2 giants instead of 3 humans (or better the option to have both), and their magic troops are their main strong point. Fire elementals are great for their cost. Demons are pretty good. Also imps if you consider a decent scout unit a bonus. If you can find artifacts that give fire resistance to your champions a fire sorc can mapwide nuke and give you that much more mathematical advantage. It can be useful for clearing dungeons with a lot of low level enemies since the sorc is almost tough enough to beat them to death with her stick; at least until they run into some archers when they are out of mana. If you have a fire warrior with you, that's that many more HP he doesn't have to swing slow as hell to knock off.

Plus there is the bonus that Water is weak in base LoMM. Water combat is rare enough that it doesn't really matter; but if you catch a ship with their creatures that's a win. Island maps make the game a lot more interesting as flying units and boats have some use and it boosts Water and Air quite a bit. Spiders are also pretty cool if you can afford some swarms. Other than that they are kind of like Order with different spells and ranged troops that fire faster but for less damage per hit.

What I'd like to see more than any other change though is the ability to have bigger armies than the 9 units +3 champions and have them fight on bigger maps than currently. If the GS() mod could change that, and Mantera has mentioned it's difficult if not impossible, it would make LoMSE really really cool.

EDIT: Funny combo? Water mage + Fire warrior. Quicksilver or Quickness or whatever. It's even hinted at in the backstory in the manual since the Legendary Fire General Jeriacor (who for some reason [$ probably] has nothing to do whatsoever with the game other than being in the manual) had some magic water artifact that only effected him.

[RedKing]

Funny, never really saw much similarity between the two...  Still don't, really.  Maybe you'd like to clarify that one for me?  I mean, MASTER of magic and AoW, sure...  But game-wise I'm not seeing the deep connection.

Hehe, yeah, combat in AoW was actually...  Sensible.  And fairly solid.

You had an elemental "wheel" of civilizations in both:

AoW:
Life (elves / high men)
Death (dark elves / undead)
Fire (Azracs [desert cat people] / orcs)
Water (humans / halflings)
Earth (dwarves / goblins)
Air (dragons / frostlings)

LoM:
Life (elves)
Death (dark elves / undead)
Fire (whatever the hell these guys were...evil dwarves / humans / giants?)
Water (amazons)
Earth (dwarves / gnomes)
Air (faeries / giants)
Order (humans)
Chaos (barbarians)

Both had an upgradeable hero + equipment system, elemental magic system, secondary sites with "neutral" monsters, cities with structure building, a tiered racial army roster, battle terrain determined by overworld map terrain, and resource gathering.

Which is to say that both are descendants of Master of Magic and just went in slightly different directions.

[Kagus]

Both had an upgradeable hero + equipment system, elemental magic system, secondary sites with "neutral" monsters, cities with structure building, a tiered racial army roster, battle terrain determined by overworld map terrain, and resource gathering.

Right, which could be said about a lot of other games...  And the original Age of Wonders did not have structure building within cities, aside from walls (speaking of, the cat-people are *not* Azracs, and you should be stoned for stating such blasphemous fallacies!).  Most of the points listed there are also shared with Warcraft 3.

If you can find artifacts that give fire resistance to your champions a fire sorc can mapwide nuke and give you that much more mathematical advantage. It can be useful for clearing dungeons with a lot of low level enemies since the sorc is almost tough enough to beat them to death with her stick; at least until they run into some archers when they are out of mana.

Right, only issue with that is finally getting to the point when you can pull off those nukes.  Mana and research concerns can be a pain.  I actually thought I'd found an okay artifact combo that would allow the sorceress to do the same kind of soloing as the Fire warrior with dragonscale armor...  Then I was brutally reminded that mages don't have a parry command.  Whoops.


I never really felt that LoM needed that many more troops on the battlefield...  At least with the current method of handling things, 30 units (if using standard 3-in-1 troops) seemed plenty enough chaos for each skirmish.  Jeriacor, as I understood it, was from a time before the era current-age LoM is set in, so some things are a bit different...  But then again, there's really not much reason for not including him in some way in the Legends of Urak pack.

[RedKing]

Both had an upgradeable hero + equipment system, elemental magic system, secondary sites with "neutral" monsters, cities with structure building, a tiered racial army roster, battle terrain determined by overworld map terrain, and resource gathering.

Right, which could be said about a lot of other games...  And the original Age of Wonders did not have structure building within cities, aside from walls (speaking of, the cat-people are *not* Azracs, and you should be stoned for stating such blasphemous fallacies!).  Most of the points listed there are also shared with Warcraft 3.

Oh yeah...those were Tigrans, not Azracs. Azracs were the first game. Man, I really need to reinstall AoW 2.

I'd say Warcraft 3 is decidedly different: RTS rather than TBS, battle occurs on the same map as movement, only two real "factions", no diplomacy, no cities, really not the same kind of game at all.

Now certainly you could argue that the Heroes of Might and Magic series has some commonalities, but HoMM doesn't feel as tied to the elemental identity as AoW and LoM are. HoMM also lacks any kind of diplomacy (not that it worked all that well in LoM, AoW or MoM)

[Kagus]

And Age of Wonders differs from Lords of Magic in that races are not bound to any specific element, combat is turn-based instead of realtime, champions are recruitable units rather than unique individuals, there's no racial diplomacy in Lords of Magic (only faith-based), heroes in Age of Wonders are only useful in combat and serve no other purpose, such as researching (directly) or training units, and the resource systems are quite different.  Not to mention various small things like prisoners, mercenaries, only one city per faith etc...

I'm not saying there aren't similarities, I'm just saying that the similarities you mention aren't particularly indicative of much, as the same correlations can be made between any number of titles.  Just like that although Warcraft 3 shares several of those points, it also differs on others and plays in a completely different fashion.  Just as Lords of Magic plays differently than Age of Wonders.


I never did get around to making that pirate-themed custom campaign in Shadow Magic...  Shame, really.  I just never got as deeply immersed in AoW2 as I did in the first one.


EDIT:  Ran into another fun interlude with mercenaries...  This time with a different group that was approaching from the east rather than the south, so they got to face the brunt of 9 footmen squads led by 3 paladins...  Normally a rather daunting sight.

...unfortunately for them, however, this was my band of reincarnated mutants I'd used to annihilate Balkoth's armies.  An ogre, a rock troll, a pegasus and a storm drake (all walk into a bar...) led around by a Death assassin.  And they attacked me on mountainous terrain again.  Poor sods never stood a chance.

I think my storm drake suffered 6 points of damage or something.  Nobody else even got hurt.

[Kagus]

(ahwups)

So I'm still just doing some cleanup in the Chaos shaman queen game, and pulled off an assassination victory against Order, who had conquered Water earlier in the game (which meant it was a double-assassination due to the Water heiress).  This, of course, sent their legendary creature on a ballistic missile course homing straight in on my shaman queen, but seeing as their "legendary creature" was a level 5 Lancelot...   ...attacking the mutant crew...  ...yeah, wasn't one of my harder battles.

So right now the only people left are Fire and Life.  I'd managed to make good with Life after giving them a rock troll in exchange for some of their archers and some gold, and since this was still seen as an incredibly generous trade they changed their attitude towards me to kinship. 

I figured I might be able to let them live.  Then they did something stupid.

Life had conquered Water's great temple after I destroyed the last traces of Order in their capital, and before I could get to it.  However, since I owned the Water city and they had a good opinion of me, they relinquished ownership.  The game informed me that they did this with heavy hearts, and would probably be a bunch of privileged little gits waiting for me to give them some gift to make nice and give thanks for their extraordinary generosity.  Opinion changed from kinship to "trust".

I figured "Okay, temple's nice to have, and they still have a decent opinion of me.  Maybe I will let them live after all".  Then the stupid started.

The next turn, they wandered around yoinking the various resource facilities that were left over in the aftermath, and then conquered the great temple of Water back from me.  At the end of their turn, they showed their enormous generosity yet again by giving it back.  Again.  Opinion changed to neutral.

Okay, no, they can die.


So now I'm rampaging through Life's territories with the Earth party that survived Order's mercenary attacks earlier, plus the hydra.   And also a stone ring which lets the magician go berserk on the fresh, green meadows of Life's domain.  Fire is currently just wandering around and letting themselves get killed by marauding parties (speaking of, I looked the other way for two seconds and a party hops in, razes the level 2 Air thieves guild with all the experience I'd pumped into it from the local thieving expert, and then takes the capital.  The night before I get more followers.  Dwurr).

[Satarus]

What I like about order, is their high armor and rounded stats.  Their melee champ can easily go total defense and shrug off nearly any attack that isn't a crit.  Their main downside is that their ultimate kinda sucks.  Sure having another lord class unit is nice, but he starts at such low level and it's a pain to level him up and have him catch up with your lord and champs.

[varnish]

I was just looking to see if someone had put some of the building selection sounds on youtube, and stumbled on the music instead. Man, I forgot how great the soundtrack in this game was.

A sample: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sseb0Z59zt4