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Author Topic: You Are A Kai Queen / You Are A Kai Commander, Day 41  (Read 85543 times)

Morrigi

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Re: You Are A Kai Queen, Not Quite Day 20
« Reply #780 on: August 08, 2012, 08:52:58 pm »

BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!
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RAM

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Re: You Are A Kai Queen, Not Quite Day 20
« Reply #781 on: August 08, 2012, 08:57:31 pm »

Oh, well lets focus on improving conditions for the flowers then.

P.S.
 Boarding in space combat isn't really practical without massive superiority(Basically they cannot hurt you at all.) or inertialess drives and inertia control because a boarding craft has to decelerate before reaching a target, a missile can just keep accelerating all the way. Additionally, missiles are already a dubious prospect because of the large distances involved. Finally, a foreign ship is completely hostile territory. Combine disabling of gravity with rapid evacuation of atmosphere and interior turrets and you basically have our forces paralysed while under attack, and that is just one scenario, a self-disabling device could remove all value from a boarding action. All things considered, a more compact form of mass would be more effective than soldiers as the destructive element of a missile, and many forms of active agent exist that would be far more effective than pure mass.

P.P.S.
While our forces are effective at close ranges our current environment is somewhat hostile to such ranges, with a sparsity of obstructions to ranged weaponry and a lack of visibility-impairing weather. Use of antisensory weapons, such as low-intensity lasers**, focused light-emitters**, high-intensity sonic emitters***, thermal and visual flares****, cloud generators*****, and sticky-matter projectors******, could some-what improve this. Additionally, any focus in close-range combat would be of extremely limited use in combat between interplanetary vessels...*******
Mars has
a)Lot's of craters
b) Freaking Sand storms. Due to the low gravity/ athmospheric density and stuff, winds speeds can become much higher and sand stay up much longer. In fact, we'll probably just need to detonate a few explosives/ use the shield* to create a protective shield..

*Mars sand is electrically charged due to the solar wind and Mars having no magnetic field.
**Sand blocks these, and everyone will have protective filters due to Mars lower athmospheric density. Don't want to be blinded by the sun.
***I doubt the athmosphere is dense enough to get a good effect.
****: +1, shouldn't be hard
*****: Hello Magnetic shield + Polarized Sand
******: ?
*******: 1. Boarding 2. Scrap rocket.(Aim at target, fire and watch how the target is shredded apart)

Air superiority is nice though. Maybe we should also construct a Stealth Base Carrier. Which is a Stealth carrier converted into a permanent base.
a,b: Craters are dependant upon position and sand-storms would impede our advance nearly as much as biped vision.
**: A focused light-emitter would direct conventional light at a target, causing extreme contrast between it and the surrounding objects. A sensor subjected to this would require a similarly extreme range to observe objects near to the emitter using the emitted wave-lengths. The light from such a device should be subject to identical forces to the light from nearby objects, therefore the device would only become ineffective if vision was completely obscured at which point their task is successful. Such a device should be useful at any time that hostile entities can observe us.
***: Sonic emitters would be short-ranged devices projected amidst hostile forces from longer ranges.
*****: Agreed, although sand may have a negative impact upon our equipment and mobility and alternatives should be investigated.
******: Opaque matter would be projected onto sensors and stick to them, preventing ranged targeting.
******* 2: ? At extra-planetary ranges guidance would be necessary on most weaponry with subluminal velocities. Superatomic particle projectors would be a potentially viable missile-mounted weapon, but seem to have little to do with close-ranged combat.
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Aklyon

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Re: You Are A Kai Queen, Not Quite Day 20
« Reply #782 on: August 08, 2012, 10:21:39 pm »

BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!
...Do Kai have religion?
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Crystalline (SG)
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Quote from: RedKing
It's known as the Oppai-Kaiju effect. The islands of Japan generate a sort anti-gravity field, which allows breasts to behave as if in microgravity. It's also what allows Godzilla and friends to become 50 stories tall, and lets ninjas run up the side of a skyscraper.

Spinal_Taper

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Re: You Are A Kai Queen, Not Quite Day 20
« Reply #783 on: August 08, 2012, 10:35:35 pm »

If we could make a microbe that targets cows, we could cripple the local economy.
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Aklyon

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Re: You Are A Kai Queen, Not Quite Day 20
« Reply #784 on: August 08, 2012, 10:37:13 pm »

If we could make a microbe that targets cows, we could cripple the local economy.
or we could have mind-controlled cows.
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Crystalline (SG)
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It's known as the Oppai-Kaiju effect. The islands of Japan generate a sort anti-gravity field, which allows breasts to behave as if in microgravity. It's also what allows Godzilla and friends to become 50 stories tall, and lets ninjas run up the side of a skyscraper.

Morrigi

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Re: You Are A Kai Queen, Not Quite Day 20
« Reply #785 on: August 09, 2012, 07:50:43 am »

Zombie cows?
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Ukrainian Ranger

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Re: You Are A Kai Queen, Not Quite Day 20
« Reply #786 on: August 09, 2012, 08:22:45 am »

Quote
P.S.
 Boarding in space combat isn't really practical without massive superiority(Basically they cannot hurt you at all.) or inertialess drives and inertia control because a boarding craft has to decelerate before reaching a target, a missile can just keep accelerating all the way. Additionally, missiles are already a dubious prospect because of the large distances involved. Finally, a foreign ship is completely hostile territory. Combine disabling of gravity with rapid evacuation of atmosphere and interior turrets and you basically have our forces paralysed while under attack, and that is just one scenario, a self-disabling device could remove all value from a boarding action. All things considered, a more compact form of mass would be more effective than soldiers as the destructive element of a missile, and many forms of active agent exist that would be far more effective than pure mass.

Assault shuttles is a bad way to do this. There are other, much  better ways to do this

Option one: predators\specialized soldiers in mobile spacesuits. When this thing reach any human ship and gets inside, it is very hard to kill it without blowing up part of the ship

Option two : stealthy boarding ships... Humans not suspecting anything until it's too late

Option 3 : ramming with big armored, fast battleships, and then laugh when the fight goes into crew vs crew situation .

Option 4 : (very high tech, but would be cool)  teleporting inside
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10ebbor10

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Re: You Are A Kai Queen, Not Quite Day 20
« Reply #787 on: August 09, 2012, 09:03:05 am »

Also, we can use particle arcelerators/other system to launch negatively charged particles to the enemy ship. This will short circuit most of their systems, rendering them immobile. Then we can board and capture them.

Besides, close combat will be useless inside the enclosed human habitation system.
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Ukrainian Ranger

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Re: You Are A Kai Queen, Not Quite Day 20
« Reply #788 on: August 09, 2012, 05:50:57 pm »

I have a new concept of our long term development as a race

I think we should do something, that former Kais didn't. We should strictly limit number of queens. To 3 to be precise. Such hive will be much more stable, that what existed before.

We'll have loyal queens and hive will not fall apart. We'll have enough queens to be sure that one will survive after some accident. Triumvirate is nice for making decisions

three queens will lay something like 600 eggs monthly and that seems too little for large empire...

But

1) We will have more and more commanders that can lay eggs, too
2) We can develop cloning, that's a nice way to produce many drones in controlled faction
3) Robots can do a big part of our job. And It's easier to supply energy than food
4) Human loyalist and slaves can be useful, too
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War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.

RAM

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Re: You Are A Kai Queen, Not Quite Day 20
« Reply #789 on: August 09, 2012, 09:07:19 pm »

Triumvirate doesn't work, either the commanders would need to be sophisticated and independent enough to rebel or the complexity(and therefore size) of our empire would be limited. Besides, three is far too few to ensure that they are not simultaneously destroyed by a coordinated and informed adversary.

A disabled target should be vulnerable to a comparatively weak invasion so immobilisation technology would be the focus of such efforts and non-lethal means of disabling opponents would be of more value than enhanced close-ranged combat. Although such efforts would seem sound.

Mobile space suits are a form of guided missile and incur all the listed disadvantages of deceleration and vulnerability with the specific disadvantage of all systems being fixed to the boarding equipment. This would obviously be absolutely impractical due to the relative scale of the soldier compared to the resources necessary to reach a hostile interplanetary vessel.

With thermal signatures, thrusters, and simple back-ground occlusion stealth is almost impossible in extra-planetary operations. You could maybe shine a really bright light behind your craft, but even that would be of limited value, especially when you consider how long it will take for your boarders to reach the target. And if we did possess such technology then there would be a vast array of better uses than trying to get boarding craft to intersect with hostile vessels that likely possess similar technology...

If a major vessel reaches collision range with a hostile target then something very odd is happening. If the heavily armoured collision vessel can out-manoeuvre a target that is sufficiently light for our vessel to survive the impact then the target's technology is sufficiently inferior that it would better to disable it with a destructive weapon and recover the undefended raw materials. The increased impact surface of a large vessel would result faster deceleration upon impact and thus a greater need to decelerate prior to impact. The large vessels being used to collide is completely impractical...

Should direct relocation to the inside of a reluctant target become feasible then invasion forces may become practical. But either it would be equally practical to relocate the vessel's own management systems or the limited capacity would require that the invasion forces be possessed of concentrated technology, rendering inherent ability almost irrelevant. This all assumes the superiority of our own forces. While the bipeds may be physically weak, we have good reason to believe that we will face opponents that are not so. A willingness to compromise the target vessel with high-penetration range-effective weaponry may well be the only advantage that our forces can expect...
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Ukrainian Ranger

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Re: You Are A Kai Queen, Not Quite Day 20
« Reply #790 on: August 10, 2012, 03:47:48 am »

Triumvirate doesn't work, either the commanders would need to be sophisticated and independent enough to rebel or the complexity(and therefore size) of our empire would be limited. Besides, three is far too few to ensure that they are not simultaneously destroyed by a coordinated and informed adversary.

1) We'll not get out of solar system  soon enough to worry about that, now
2) There are technological ways to create long range communication to project Queen's will over long distances
3) If we will not have huge population, but concentrate on tech to ensure our might... we'll simply not need huge territory, and concentrate on planets\systems that have key resources, ignoring the rest
4)We can and we must to protect queens adequately
5) We can, and should use bipeds experience... they managed to build an empire in their squashy bodies and crawling reproduction rate

Quote
Mobile space suits are a form of guided missile and incur all the listed disadvantages of deceleration and vulnerability with the specific disadvantage of all systems being fixed to the boarding equipment. This would obviously be absolutely impractical due to the relative scale of the soldier compared to the resources necessary to reach a hostile interplanetary vessel.

Do you understand that missile = hole in the enemy ship, but predator inside it's not only almost guaranteed kill, but also likely +1 ship to our fleet?
And spacesuit can be made way way more maneuverable than guided missile
And I don't see extreme costs here... In fact it's much easier to build fleet of spacesuited marines, than proper fleet. While both may be equally deadly, at least against current opponent - humans
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War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.

10ebbor10

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Re: You Are A Kai Queen, Not Quite Day 20
« Reply #791 on: August 10, 2012, 04:08:59 am »

Stealth is hard to do in space. But we don't want to make ourselves invisible. Also, that's all about spaceships, with engines and running parts and such. A drop pod launched on a predetermined trajectory can easily make it quite close, provided the enemy isn't expecting it(And isn't randomwalking and such). In fact, a small dark, cold object is near impossible to detect.

We just want to look like a piece of debris or something. There's enough of that in Mars orbit. Considering that for much of the time we will be defending, and that most battles will take place in Mars orbit, we have an excellent place for ambushes. Since we can use the debris field and several other engineering tricks to render long range missiles useless, and they have only limited manouvring space, we can certainly get within boarding range.(If it comes to a space battle at all, and they don't slam into a piece of debris, or mass drop the surface.)

Third, we might be able to develop particleweapons that can shortcircuit human electronics quite easily. If we do that, we might need to board and takeover the enemy ship before the marines inside destroy it. There's also the problem that most human ships will be modular build, since that is much easier and cheaper, for only a few tradeoffs. This means that(especially in warships), individual sections in the ship can keep functioning for quite some time even if the ship has been torn apart.
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RAM

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Re: You Are A Kai Queen, Not Quite Day 20
« Reply #792 on: August 10, 2012, 09:24:07 pm »

Triumvirate doesn't work, either the commanders would need to be sophisticated and independent enough to rebel or the complexity(and therefore size) of our empire would be limited. Besides, three is far too few to ensure that they are not simultaneously destroyed by a coordinated and informed adversary.

1) We'll not get out of solar system  soon enough to worry about that, now
2) There are technological ways to create long range communication to project Queen's will over long distances
3) If we will not have huge population, but concentrate on tech to ensure our might... we'll simply not need huge territory, and concentrate on planets\systems that have key resources, ignoring the rest
4)We can and we must to protect queens adequately
5) We can, and should use bipeds experience... they managed to build an empire in their squashy bodies and crawling reproduction rate

Quote
Mobile space suits are a form of guided missile and incur all the listed disadvantages of deceleration and vulnerability with the specific disadvantage of all systems being fixed to the boarding equipment. This would obviously be absolutely impractical due to the relative scale of the soldier compared to the resources necessary to reach a hostile interplanetary vessel.

Do you understand that missile = hole in the enemy ship, but predator inside it's not only almost guaranteed kill, but also likely +1 ship to our fleet?
And spacesuit can be made way way more maneuverable than guided missile
And I don't see extreme costs here... In fact it's much easier to build fleet of spacesuited marines, than proper fleet. While both may be equally deadly, at least against current opponent - humans
1: The logistical pressures of a planetary-scale civilisation require significant calculation capacity and therefore a level of complexity in the periphery management elements. In short, the number of queens is irrelevant, it is the complexity of our civilisation. In order to have any adaptability in our civilisation, we will require a great many more than three entities with the capacity to operate independently.
 2: Communication necessitates the ability to be detected, therefore such communication is a vulnerability. Our previous opponents likely possessed a means to detect our communications and used that to murder our previous incarnation.
 3: Research capacity is directly bound to possessing a large supply of complex thought. These are the same factors that promote conflicting groups. The alternative would be to possess consistency throughout our race, this would preclude any form of small-scale adaptability.
 4: No such protection exists, mass drops can destroy hives, novas can destroy colonies, communications will reveal locations. Our own survival was due only to our isolation and independence. We should not abandon the only facet of our previous incarnation that we know to have been successful.
 5: The bipeds are useless, their lack of competent competition is not a valid reason for us to become dependent upon them. Some examination of their civilisation may be profitable, as they do possess a unique perspective on the construction of an empire, and we do not possess any knowledge of the formation of our own empire. But as for incorporating them into our civilisation, they possess a large capacity for rebellion and limited physical and mental capacities. Their only value lies in their functioning empire, which is likely beyond our control and would be better replaced with our own when we have the means to do so.

(military) A self-propelled projectile whose trajectory can be adjusted after having been launched.

 A single predator is unlikely to survive an assault on an entire hostile vessel of significant value and is unlikely to be capable of operating such a vessel.
 A missile that must limit its acceleration to an extent sufficient to maintain the mechanical integrity of a combat-effective entity is far less manoeuvrable than one without mechanical components.
 Laser and explosive-missile satellites would be far cheaper and more persistent, and almost certainly more effective, than drones and neither possesses interplanetary-capacity without the assistance of interplanetary vessels.

Stealth is hard to do in space. But we don't want to make ourselves invisible. Also, that's all about spaceships, with engines and running parts and such. A drop pod launched on a predetermined trajectory can easily make it quite close, provided the enemy isn't expecting it(And isn't randomwalking and such). In fact, a small dark, cold object is near impossible to detect.

We just want to look like a piece of debris or something. There's enough of that in Mars orbit. Considering that for much of the time we will be defending, and that most battles will take place in Mars orbit, we have an excellent place for ambushes. Since we can use the debris field and several other engineering tricks to render long range missiles useless, and they have only limited manouvring space, we can certainly get within boarding range.(If it comes to a space battle at all, and they don't slam into a piece of debris, or mass drop the surface.)

Third, we might be able to develop particleweapons that can shortcircuit human electronics quite easily. If we do that, we might need to board and takeover the enemy ship before the marines inside destroy it. There's also the problem that most human ships will be modular build, since that is much easier and cheaper, for only a few tradeoffs. This means that(especially in warships), individual sections in the ship can keep functioning for quite some time even if the ship has been torn apart.
Such a measure might be successful in remaining undetected, but any opposition would likely be monitoring the launching vessel for projectiles. A vessel without propulsion, that requires its contents to survive an impact with another vessel, would require a comparatively low velocity, could not accelerate during the intervening distance, and could not adjust its course to impact with the target, given that it has a limited duration before the thermal output of the life-support functions overwhelm its thermal insulation, it would likely have an extremely limited range, and most engagements would likely be resolved at much greater range. Although perhaps some system involving superluminal transportation could produce the desired range...

In planetary orbit objects would occlude the planet and be highly visible. The inclusion of a drone would require a certain level of energy consumption, thermal energy generation, and either a limited duration or be subject to the limitations of dormancy. And unless the target makes a habit of hitting obstacles, it would require propulsion and sensory apparatus that may be difficult to disguise. While most potential targets would already be on landing vectors, it could potentially be of some value if the enemy could be persuaded to engage in an orbital battle for some reason, although lasers and mass drops would likely have resolved the battle before that point, and a large vessel is not likely to remain within a debris field...

Capturing disabled vessels would indeed be valuable, but would likely not require significant focus in our efforts beyond disabling them. Therefore it seems that increasing our unequipped and close-range capabilities should not be a focus and numerical strength is more difficult to apply than technological strength.
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Ukrainian Ranger

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Re: You Are A Kai Queen, Not Quite Day 20
« Reply #793 on: August 11, 2012, 01:32:09 am »

RAM you are planning so ahead that it's unpractical...

1. When we reach the stage when we need to leave the system, then we can switch to many queens route, by just setuping small hives all over the place to ensure our survival. It's not hard to mass produce queens, or junior queens to colonize...
2. If we'll have many queens, we still need to communicate....
3: With all royal jelly thay we'll save we can make many, many research oriented drones. + Bipeds, that have some ability to research
4. Again you are planning way to ahead. We should think only about war with humans. Dealing with supernovaing entities is a much later problem, when we'll have techs comparable to them. And it will not can bring o And you forgot one fact - even losing off all our queens is only a temporary set back
5. Incorporating means changing and integrating. Think hatever you want I will advocate converting humans into Kai, if only for genetical diversity

Quote
A single predator is unlikely to survive an assault on an entire hostile vessel of significant value and is unlikely to be capable of operating such a vessel.

Unlikely? UNLIKELY? Did you read the description of this thing? It can move through walls like through paper.  It needs a TANK to get killed. And it will fight in a cramped gravity-less and soon to be airless environment  against squashy humans. Predator will not even notice 1000 men crew and it's quite a big ship. The only way to realistically kill a predator is a big BOOM, that will destroy significant part of the ship.

And when predator(s) will clear the ship(s), we can send tech drones to turn it in our ship. The only thing I'd worry, that predator may damage ship little too much


And I am talking strictly about mars conquest and defense against human counterattack from space, planning further away is  useless.  Both from OOC reasons (Game is way to unlikely to reach that stage) and IC reasons ( We don't know what conditions we will have)
« Last Edit: August 11, 2012, 01:33:55 am by Ukrainian Ranger »
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War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.

Zecro_The_Scourge

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Re: You Are A Kai Queen, Not Quite Day 20
« Reply #794 on: August 11, 2012, 04:32:27 pm »

I say we develop weapons based off cheese.
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