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[ResMar]

Whoa, I only just realized that the anvil to forge an anvil to forge an anvil to forge an anvil to forge an anvil to forge an anvil to forge an anvil to forge an anvil to forge an anvil to forge an anvil to forge an anvil to forge an anvil to forge an anvil to forge an anvil to forge your anvil had to come from somewhere...

Mind = blown.

[Corai]

Whoa, I only just realized that the anvil to forge an anvil to forge an anvil to forge an anvil to forge an anvil to forge an anvil to forge an anvil to forge an anvil to forge an anvil to forge an anvil to forge an anvil to forge an anvil to forge an anvil to forge an anvil to forge your anvil had to come from somewhere...

Mind = blown.

I say a dwarf smashed a kobold thief against a wall so hard, that it made a hole.


In that hole, was iron. The hit was so hard it melted. The dwarf watched it pour into a nearby hole, and harden.


Thus, a smelted piece of iron, he attempted to sharpen his wooden axe on it, and he realized he could forge.


Then suddenly elf.

[jhharvest]

The real problem with a mood creating the first anvil is this:
Naked prehistoric dorfs have no tools. Therefore they cannot cut wood or mine. Thus they have no materials and cannot create a workshop that would allow a dorf to mood.

They could have mountains of bone from the wildlife they've wrestled to death (while naked) but no way to use that bone as there are no workshops. So really the question is: where did the first crafting workshop come from? Can cave-ins produce stone?

[Corai]

The real problem with a mood creating the first anvil is this:
Naked prehistoric dorfs have no tools. Therefore they cannot cut wood or mine. Thus they have no materials and cannot create a workshop that would allow a dorf to mood.

They could have mountains of bone from the wildlife they've wrestled to death (while naked) but no way to use that bone as there are no workshops. So really the question is: where did the first crafting workshop come from? Can cave-ins produce stone?

Driftwood, they used driftwood.



Then driftwood picks.


Then eventully it got so obsolescent they just forgot how to make, use, or even recognize the existance of driftwood.

[misko27]

The real problem with a mood creating the first anvil is this:
Naked prehistoric dorfs have no tools. Therefore they cannot cut wood or mine. Thus they have no materials and cannot create a workshop that would allow a dorf to mood.

They could have mountains of bone from the wildlife they've wrestled to death (while naked) but no way to use that bone as there are no workshops. So really the question is: where did the first crafting workshop come from? Can cave-ins produce stone?

Didn't you read the Quote pyramid? no sympathy for fools such as you.
also

Whoa, I only just realized that the anvil to forge an anvil to forge an anvil to forge an anvil to forge an anvil to forge an anvil to forge an anvil to forge an anvil to forge an anvil to forge an anvil to forge an anvil to forge an anvil to forge an anvil to forge an anvil to forge your anvil had to come from somewhere...

Mind = blown.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Yes. ALSO in the mighty pyramid.

[SharkForce]

The real problem with a mood creating the first anvil is this:
Naked prehistoric dorfs have no tools. Therefore they cannot cut wood or mine. Thus they have no materials and cannot create a workshop that would allow a dorf to mood.

They could have mountains of bone from the wildlife they've wrestled to death (while naked) but no way to use that bone as there are no workshops. So really the question is: where did the first crafting workshop come from? Can cave-ins produce stone?

Driftwood, they used driftwood.



Then driftwood picks.


Then eventully it got so obsolescent they just forgot how to make, use, or even recognize the existance of driftwood.

well, you can make clay boulders if you can somehow get your hands on an ash block. so... a dragon attack burninates the countryside, leaving in it's wake an ash block, maybe? which could then be used to build a kiln, which in turn can be used to build many other workshops (including kilns, come to think of it... if we could somehow find a way to get a clay boulder, you could use that instead of an ash block).

(truthfully, there's no reason a dwarf should need a kiln to make a clay boulder, that's just the site where you issue the order, i suppose... the kiln itself isn't really used in the process. so find a way to order clay to be gathered without a kiln, and you're good to go... perhaps can a manager order that? if so, then all we need is for a dwarf to wrestle elfs to death until they get a wooden table (edit: chair. table is for food, chairs are for writing on. how foolish of me), right?)

edit: no good. testing shows you would need a kiln even if you somehow managed to get a table chair (which apparently aren't available from the mountainhome, had to cheat a little and make a carpenter's shop then a chair on my test embark). and unfortunately, while the elves might build a wooden chair, i have my doubts about elves making a kiln...

[jhharvest]

They could have mountains of bone from the wildlife they've wrestled to death (while naked) but no way to use that bone as there are no workshops. So really the question is: where did the first crafting workshop come from? Can cave-ins produce stone?

Didn't you read the Quote pyramid? no sympathy for fools such as you.
 

I did in fact read the mighty pyramid but they were asking the wrong question. An anvil can be molded if you have a craft workshop.

[Loud Whispers]

Urist McScience says that by examining blood red shift, we can determine the center of the Universal save folder, which is an anvil.

Armok's anvil. The first anvil.

[MarcAFK]

You don't need an anvil to make an anvil, you need a hole in some clay and some sweet sweet magma.

[Helgoland]

I am pretty sure not every combination is possible. I never had rock or gemstone or glass weapons or bone or bone anvils.

Well, we're waiting on the anvil in the hopes of solving a very important question.

That's easy for me - clearly, the first anvil was bought on embark or acquired from human caravan.

1. No.
2. If that was even a possibility, where did that one come from? Square one.

What do you mean, 'where'? From embark of course.

Don't argue with circular logic

But then, say, where did wood come from? you need wood or metal for axes. for metal you need charcoal. for charcoal you need wood. So for wood you need wood...

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

What did I tell you about circular logic?
Bring it from embark

Trees can be explained.
Embark, no. Anything gained from embark has to be available from the mountainhomes, otherwise it won't be available.

...Except for steel anvils.

YOU'RE ONTO SOMETHING HERE.

QUICK, SOMEONE MAKE MORE CIRCLES

Where did the First pick come from? couldn't dig to the magma sea and make metal axes without picks.

VIVA LA QUOTE PYRAMID!

A pick could have come from a bonecrafting strange mood.

So:
1) Naked prehistoric dwarf embarks on a volcano and gets a *wolf bone pick* from a mood
2)
3) Magma forges make anvils for everyone!

1. Ancient kobols steals ancient bone pick.

2.

3.Ancient kobolds make the first caverns with bone pick.



PROBLEM?

Yes. It stiil leaves the question of the first anvil.

Yes. Kobolds could never do such a sophesticated thing. As they are small, weak and unintelligent.
The first pick/anvil was made by dwarves that dipped ore lying around in a nearby volcano and then fucked around with it, as dwarves do, over the course of many years.

No it wasn't. It was created by their survivors.

Not gotten on embark, but on reclaim!

Dwarven Forum-Pyramid.  New kind of mega-construction???

Most definitely

A new megaproject is all well and fine, but how are we going to weaponize it? Further, we need to make sure we can collapse the thing at will. Or in a way which any number of things can trigger.

Quote pyramids are frowned upon because they make the forums sad. Don't do it.

Man I haven't seen one of those in forever.

I feel proud to have been a part of this monstrosity. Also, I think this would count as my first successful derail of a thread. 

My guess, the first anvil was found by someone that embarked on an abandoned lair.  That or a mood making a stone anvil.

It can't just be "they used stone as an anvil" because if they could do it, so could we our dwarves.

This pyramid is bad and you should feel Egyptian.

ftfy.

But where did the first building materials come from?
(Maybe they collapsed one of these)

[Lagslayer]

Well, strange moods have undergone changes as the versions came and went. Perhaps in an earlier version, an artifact anvil was possible. Then as the laws of the universe were twisted to Toady's will, that ability was lost, but those anvils remained.

[Tomsod]

Magma men leave a chunk of obsidian upon their death. Of course, killing them bare-handed is pretty hard, but ancient dwarves could use some clever techniques like luring them all the way through a cave to the surface and in a herd of zombie elephants. (Or, more easily, through a tent to the circus and in a crowd of clowns.) This may be the hypothetical first block which was used to build first kiln which was used to collect first clay which was used to build more workshops which were used by moody dwarves to make first bone anvil and first bone pick. Problem solved?

[Wyrmnax]

I am pretty sure not every combination is possible. I never had rock or gemstone or glass weapons or bone or bone anvils.

Well, we're waiting on the anvil in the hopes of solving a very important question.

That's easy for me - clearly, the first anvil was bought on embark or acquired from human caravan.

1. No.
2. If that was even a possibility, where did that one come from? Square one.

What do you mean, 'where'? From embark of course.

Don't argue with circular logic

But then, say, where did wood come from? you need wood or metal for axes. for metal you need charcoal. for charcoal you need wood. So for wood you need wood...

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Or you can just use magma. Problem solved.

[Lagslayer]

Perhaps they stole some wood from the elves to make their first workshops. The elves can gather it magically, so they had a way even without tools.

[SharkForce]

Magma men leave a chunk of obsidian upon their death. Of course, killing them bare-handed is pretty hard, but ancient dwarves could use some clever techniques like luring them all the way through a cave to the surface and in a herd of zombie elephants. (Or, more easily, through a tent to the circus and in a crowd of clowns.) This may be the hypothetical first block which was used to build first kiln which was used to collect first clay which was used to build more workshops which were used by moody dwarves to make first bone anvil and first bone pick. Problem solved?

well, yes, although that seems overly complicated. i mean, if you have a boulder, you wouldn't need to build a kiln to get a boulder to make a workshop, because you would already have a boulder. although i suppose that would certainly provide for them to have made multiple workshops much more easily than other ways.

so, what are we up to so far? dorf kills a magma man (somehow), uses that to craft a kiln - make that a magma kiln actually - (so that they can get many boulders instead of just one), uses the kiln to get clay boulders, uses the clay boulders to make one or more workshops, specifically including a craftsdwarf workshop, uses the craftsdwarf workshop to mood a pick out of bone (which will have to be butchered to get, i suppose, so now we're up to a craftsdwarf shop and a butcher's shop, requiring only some sort of tame or killed animal. maybe we should add a bowyer's workshop to make it easier to get more bone?).

additionally, a magma smelter will be necessary (we still don't have a source of fuel, although eventually you're bound to mood out a regular axe as well, possibly before even the pick), which does not require an anvil. perhaps at this point, the first anvil was not, in fact, a rock, but was actually a metal bar. or even a pile of metal bars, all stacked up.

perhaps the first anvil was actually a gigantic structure (shaped like an anvil of course) made using metal bars, which can in fact be obtained without an anvil. at this point, you would need some sort of giant blacksmith (presumably armok, unless titans can learn crafting skills - which seems unlikely... i've never heard of a titan with a beard) to come along and forge more dwarf-sized anvils.