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[Elone]

After seeing about 15-20 posts made in the Future thread about how to defeat a horse with a spear, in what way to slash, whether other polearms are better, whether the swords should be used, heck, how to sharpen your spear tip when going against this titanic force of nature, I realised that DF community is more fascinated with horses than just in a passing manner as I originally thought.

One possibility is that after those Toady's several large daily posts there has not be one in four days, Future topic watchers are slowly going into withdrawal, and are discussing whatever the heck comes first on their minds. But, that's a silly assumption.

Thus, I am creating a topic just about what you think it is. How to defeat a horse with a weapon, spears being the primary candidates. It is also a picture thread if you wish.

[zwei]

What about caltrops?

[scriver]

This really should have gone in General Discussion, though You can move it there if you wish, somewhere in the lower left there should be a button I think.

[Headhanger]

I only glanced over the Future of the Fortress thread you referenced, so I hope I'm not repeating anything.

I've seen a man getting over-run by a horse in real life - that experience would persuade me to dive out of the way rather than stand, resolute and vigilant, with spear in hand.

Spoiler: source (click to show/hide)

I'm a dark-ages re-enactor in my spare time, and the biggest event of the year is always the Battle of Hastings. I was in the front line (a poor Saxon conscript) as one of the Norman cavalry charges came our way.

One of the Norman knights lost control of his horse and it started veering into our shieldwall. Everyone was shuffling back and out of the way, but the hersir (someone who relays commands up and down the field) standing in front of our line was looking the other way. The horse collided with him from behind and he went face-down into the mud. Blam. Blink and you'll miss it. I don't think the horse slowed down at all - it just kept going until the knight regained control of it.

We rushed forward to check on the hersir. His spear had snapped in half, his shield was pretty beaten up (and had awkwardly twisted his arm), and he was barely moving - shock I think. He also had a bloody nose where his face had received the good news from the ground - I assume that the nasal guard of his helmet helped with that.

Fortunately, he avoided sustaining any serious injuries. He hardly knew where he was or what was going on while he was moved off the field. I heard he was suffering only bruises and some concussion after the battle - no broken bones. I guess a hauberk isn't really going to do much against blunt trauma like that - I imagine he had circles all over his back where the mail had been pressed into his skin.

I've no doubt that, in later centuries than the one we were re-enacting, brave pikemen would stand their ground and make horsemeat kebabs out of enemy cavalry; but if it was up to me, I'd prefer to jump out of the way and hack at the rider with a longaxe or a big sword.

Of course, the horse isn't the only thing you have to worry about if the rider has a lance or something. Best to gang up on a mounted opponent, and hope that at least one of you has a big shield.

[Tirion]

A proven method: be sure you're well above your race's average size, and have extremely high strenght, toughness and endurance, along with the trait 'incredibly quick to anger'. Habe a steel 2-handed sword. Be nicknamed the Mountain That Rides.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpQ-tOGXZiUSWORD!

[DG]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

A proven method: be sure you're well above your race's average size, and have extremely high strenght, toughness and endurance, along with the trait 'incredibly quick to anger'. Habe a steel 2-handed sword. Be nicknamed the Mountain That Rides.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpQ-tOGXZiUSWORD!

No no no. That's all wrong. This is how you do it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSO_RRkmh8Q

[Peacemaker636]

This raises some interesting combat issues.  For example, I don't think there is currently any kind of momentum for creatures.  But obviously the most dangerous thing about a horse is how fast that enormous animal is charging at you.  I wonder if it would be possible for creatures to have a vector indicating velocity in addition to their xyz coordinates.  Then it could maybe be tied into the projectile collision physics to calculate charging attack damage based on speed and mass.  This could lead to some cool implications...for example you could get a running start to tackle a dangerous enemy into a murky pool to drown them.  And agility could have more weight as it would allow you to change direction faster*.

*Faster of course in game time...you would still move one square but enemies with a greater velocity could catch up

[Greiger]

Wasn't the two handed sword mostly designed as an anti-calvary weapon?  I can't imagine it would be as outright effective as a pike or polearm of some kind, but I imagine a skirmisher would probably have an easier time against a mounted knight or something by sidestepping the charge while swinging for the horse's chest or head.  Than trying to line up a single spear point against a lone horseman. 

Don't see many historical things of soldiers wielding two handed swords in big battles  (probably mostly the scots and vikings) probably because I don't imagine it working well in formation fighting.  But I'm sure it has it's niche, and downing a horse and rider is almost certainly part of it.

This raises some interesting combat issues.  For example, I don't think there is currently any kind of momentum for creatures.  But obviously the most dangerous thing about a horse is how fast that enormous animal is charging at you.  I wonder if it would be possible for creatures to have a vector indicating velocity in addition to their xyz coordinates.  Then it could maybe be tied into the projectile collision physics to calculate charging attack damage based on speed and mass.  This could lead to some cool implications...for example you could get a running start to tackle a dangerous enemy into a murky pool to drown them.  And agility could have more weight as it would allow you to change direction faster*.

*Faster of course in game time...you would still move one square but enemies with a greater velocity could catch up

I recall toady at one time mentioning that he liked how mount and blade handled velocities in regards to attacks.  I think it was on one of the DFtalks when talking about the at that time far off on the horizon move-attack speed split.  And mount and blade handles it almost exactly how you describe (swing a sword and you'll maybe do +10% damage for velocity, but swing the same sword from a horse going full speed and you can do +120% or more).  So while it currently isn't in, I imagine it would probably be similar to how it's handled in the future.  Merging the current charge knock over effect to that is probably a matter of course.

[Loud Whispers]

Just do what Odysseus did, hit it in the spine with great force from a spear or something.

[Peacemaker636]

A proven method: be sure you're well above your race's average size, and have extremely high strenght, toughness and endurance, along with the trait 'incredibly quick to anger'. Habe a steel 2-handed sword. Be nicknamed the Mountain That Rides.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpQ-tOGXZiUSWORD!

I think decapitating a horse would be much harder than that.  There's a lot of flesh in that neck.

For the sake of the thread (I hope I didn't move things too off track with my general combat diversion), I'll leave this here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavalry_tactics

Particularly look at the cavalry countertactics section.  Of course this is wikipedia, but it is a good jumping off point.  And I'm not a medieval re-enactor or an expert or anything so the internet is all I've got   

It looks like crossbows would be the best option against a charge, but it also says pikes were used to great effect.  I don't see anything about side-stepping and slashing.  It sounds like cavalry would charge in tight formation so you would just be dodging into another horseman's lance.

An interesting (and awesome) tactic was to use terrain to diminish the advantage of cavalry (namely it's speed).  So heavily forested, muddy, or swampy areas would make a cavalry charge almost useless.  I can see it now...building giant sand pits in front of our fortresses to defeat enemy horsemen.  Awesowe!

[Loud Whispers]

I think decapitating a horse would be much harder than that.  There's a lot of flesh in that neck.

That's why it's included. George assumes the reader (or audience I guess) can figure out, the horse's head is not supposed to be hanging by the skin, and show that Mr. Mountain is really abnormally strong.
I guess being an antagonist is also a valid strategy for defeating a horse.

[Headhanger]

Wasn't the two handed sword mostly designed as an anti-calvary weapon?  I can't imagine it would be as outright effective as a pike or polearm of some kind, but I imagine a skirmisher would probably have an easier time against a mounted knight or something by sidestepping the charge while swinging for the horse's chest or head.  Than trying to line up a single spear point against a lone horseman. 

Don't see many historical things of soldiers wielding two handed swords in big battles  (probably mostly the scots and vikings) probably because I don't imagine it working well in formation fighting.  But I'm sure it has it's niche, and downing a horse and rider is almost certainly part of it.

You're on the money with two-handed swords being poor weapons to use in formation. Dwarves and adventurers will probably be freed from the restrictions of formation-based warfare though. Otherwise our dwarves would just form a shield wall bristling with spears with marskdwarves raining death from behind.

As for two-handed swords: Scots, yes; Vikings, no. The northmen did like their big axes though, and there was one account (from the Battle of Hastings, I think) of a Saxon huscarl killing both horse and rider with such an axe.

Spoiler: words, words, words! (click to show/hide)

For the sake of the thread (I hope I didn't move things too off track with my general combat diversion), I'll leave this here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavalry_tactics

Particularly look at the cavalry countertactics section.  Of course this is wikipedia, but it is a good jumping off point.  And I'm not a medieval re-enactor or an expert or anything so the internet is all I've got   

It looks like crossbows would be the best option against a charge, but it also says pikes were used to great effect.  I don't see anything about side-stepping and slashing.  It sounds like cavalry would charge in tight formation so you would just be dodging into another horseman's lance.

An interesting (and awesome) tactic was to use terrain to diminish the advantage of cavalry (namely it's speed).  So heavily forested, muddy, or swampy areas would make a cavalry charge almost useless.  I can see it now...building giant sand pits in front of our fortresses to defeat enemy horsemen.  Awesowe!

All well and good, but I don't think dwarves or adventurers are going to be facing a cavalry charge, as in a unit of mounted warriors in formation, unless/until Toady adds formations and the like.

But then the upcoming updates to combat and AI reactions to battle, injuries, losses, etc. might mean enemies will work together in a scrap. Maybe an elven sieger (mounted on a unicorn) will co-operate with his also-mounted comrade when charging your dwarven defenders.

George assumes the reader (or audience I guess) can figure out, the horse's head is not supposed to be hanging by the skin, and show that Mr. Mountain is really abnormally strong.

Not to belittle your (perfectly valid) point, but I think the sword would be the weakest link in this example - it'd be horribly bent and misshapen by the time that horse keeled over.

But then ASoIaF, like Dwarf Fortress, is a work of fiction, so we don't have to deal with the realistic properties of muscle or steel.

[Greiger]

Yea the whole thing I was thinking about was a two handed sword in small battles, not enough horsemen to make a real formation out of.  Like the lone messenger or a supply escort.

But yea, looking again either I misread my information, mis-remembered it or my source was plain wrong.  If anything I see them references as an anti-anti-calvalry tactic.  Breaking up groups of pikemen, using the long but more agile weapons to knock aside or destroy the pikes.  So I seem to have been wrong.  My bad. 

As for using crossbows to break up a charge, in fort mode we would probably need to have a touch more control over targeting.  Like aim for the mount or aim for the rider.  The way it currently works wouldn't be too bad I suppose, but even if every single dwarf killed a target 1 for 1 against a charging group of mounted goblins.  Half of them are still going to get flattened by a massive animal traveling at 30 Mph, rider or no.  I would think it would be preferable to be able to give the order to take out the mount, stop the charge, then get the riders as they are picking themselves back up from under their giant olms.

[Corai]

Read the "Journey of Deebus" in the adventure forum.


That kobold, that kobold defeated a horse with silver spear at novice.

[Kumis]

I wish I had screencapped it, now.
It was page after page of my adventurer stabbing a horse in the head with a spear.
I think in the end I actually had to strangle it to death, all the time terrified that the thing'd regain consciousness and hoof me in the head before I took my finger off the arrow key in time to notice it happening.