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[GlyphGryph]

This here threads to discuss not 40k, but Games Workshop, and how much longer they are going to keep their stranglehold on the market against companies like Privateer Press.

Locally, 40k is all but dead. The shops still carry it, but the owners I've spoken with say its slow to move, and the people who buy it are mostly the collectors. Warmachine, however, continues to fly off the shelf.

Local games are all non-40k, can't remember the last time I've seen anyone play. 4 years ago, 9 our of 10 games were 40k. Now I literally see nothing. The tournaments are all Warmachine. Even at the cons I visit, 40k seems to make up a smaller and smaller portion of the gaming room each year (though its still large).

So is GW actually in trouble, or is this just a local thing and a bunch of anecdotes? Is it a good thing or a bad thing? Have you switched to/from a GW game lately, and too/from what?

[GlyphGryph]

We should probably list the Geographic areas we're talking about too, for reference. Most of knowledge comes from Rhode Island, USA.

[Sirus]

In my little section of the US, tabletop games in general are pretty slow business. There's exactly one place that I know of that sells miniatures, and it's a pretty good mix between Warhammer, War Machine, and various other games. Card games (Yu-Gi-Oh! and Magic mostly) are still very popular here.

So long story short, I don't have any idea

[G-Flex]

Speaking as another Rhode Islander... I can't say much of anything, because the (tabletop/traditional) "gamers" I've known most recently were just a bunch of obnoxious dudes who played Magic: The Gathering and WoW too much instead of going to their classes. So yeah, I'm no help there. Then again, games like that might be cutting into the tabletop market in general.

[BigD145]

I don't play, but Washington state seems to still be going strong. Players are in the local venues almost daily.

[GlyphGryph]

The wargamer crowd is usually... significantly different from the "other"-gamer crowd. There's some overlap, of course, but most of them get into the hobby from the art and miniature painting side rather than the game side, with another chunk of them coming in from historical wargames and other history based stuff, and the final coming in mostly for the mechanics.

The last chunk is one of the smaller ones.

That said, its going quite strong in RI - Templecon, a relatively small con, still had around a hundred tables full of wargames. It's boardgame+cardgame room had about 20-30.

[sambojin]

I used to play a lot of Wh40k and WH, but this was back in 2nd edition. There wasn't much else about that had an in depth universe with the look and feel of old-style WH40k.

Then 3rd came along and while it did do plenty of things right, it also broke a lot of the things that made me like playing. Then prices started to climb into the stratosphere (they weren't cheap to begin with), more editions were released to patch holes in the ruleset whilst making more due to very unbalanced codex releases and it all sort of went to shit.

2nd was hugely unbalanced. But in the sense that there was usually something just as killy or indestructable in the army you were facing if you liked playing that way. But usually it wasn't an army wide phenomena, just horribly overpowered characters/vehicles/squads peppered around the place amongst normal stuff. Except necrons and psyker powers. Or lots of stuff really. But at least everyone could have a go at going OP if they wanted, it was inherent in the system.

I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing. But it was a fun game to play back then because of it. None of the other editions gripped me as much, so I stopped playing (other than a little lizard-bird-men force from the "Taalos" codex in 3rd. Or whatever they were called. Free armybooks in WD tended to get my attention more than half of their big releases.) I've still got some chaos marines, some cultists and some orks around in some boxes somewhere, but I don't know if they'll see the light of day again.

Same thing happened with WH really. Prices went up, rules got crappier (IMO), armies got strange. From 5th-6th-7th I was fine with it (BfSP was one of the best releases ever for models and converting), but just couldn't really be bothered with 8th edition. I played O+G and Chaos, so from 5th-7th was already a bit of a kick in the pants for me play-wise. They were pretty broken armies, pretty powerful, but just got nerfed and changed from what I thought was their core play style and fluff as the game editions progressed. Having a Wolfrider and infantry horde all of a sudden have half of it's troops as simple fast cav support, rather than as the cutting edge of the force, kind of turned me off the game. 6th was great, 7th not bad. 8th just kind of shits me. I get it, I'm not bad at it, I just don't like playing it. There's quite a few boxes of wolves wishing a lot of people still played the older editions in my area.

So basically, I turned to computer games. Because they're better. And cheaper. And you can mod the rules in most of them. And there's more people to play against. The only thing GW related that I do play these days is Bloodbowl on Fumbbl (and I'm thinking of jumping into some BFG on Vassal due to a thread posted here). Because I've already paid hundreds (if not thouisands) of dollars to play a game that now sucks balls. Free all the way from this point onward.

I don't think any miniature company will be able to pry me off my computer these days because of GW's shit-house rules, pricing and history as a games company. Their IPs make better PC games than they do board games these days anyway.

[nenjin]

I don't think any miniature company will be able to pry me off my computer these days because of GW's shit-house rules, pricing and history as a games company. Their IPs make better PC games than they do board games these days anyway.

There is an issue with this though. All GWS PC games draw inspiration from established GWS models, rules and games. While I'm sure it makes perfect sense for GWS to start investing more heavily in computer games with their IPs, they don't do any of that internally. It's all farmed out to different developers. GWS is known for rabidly protecting both their IP and its presentation. So unless GWS starts developing PC games in house, the product line kind of has to continue so PC game makers have reference and guidance. Because I don't think there's any way GWS would turn over creative control of the IP to another company. The bigger their business partner, the more paranoid GWS gets. So I don't see them ever doing something like telling THQ and Relic "Yeah, go ahead and do what you like for the next game." It all has to fall inline with GWS' setting, models and aesthetics.

So yeah. I don't know HOW they make money these days outside of their PC game deals, but I imagine they'll continue to reinvest that money back into TT games. Because they're still the engine that drives everything else.

Also, any discussion of GWS financial health is incomplete without input from some Brits, as GWS is still a British/European company despite their large presence in America.

[Aqizzar]

I haven't really "played" Warhammer in years, but here in North Texas it's always had a presence but never very large one.  On the one hand, every comic shop and almost every hobby shop I've been to has a Warhammer section, and the Penny Arcade forums had a regular DFW group.  On the other hand, it's almost impossible for a hobby shop to do enough business in DFW to stay open.  Judging by Google maps, a metroplex of twelve million people can never keep more than about four stores open at any one time.

I hate to sound like the fa/tg/uy echochamber, but GW's design decisions over the last few years have to be a big factor.  Power creep has always been an issue with Warhammer, but the last four years brought new meaning to the word.  The rules and winning strategies are less "flexible" than they used to be for some armies, and for people who play competitively, it's pretty much Victory To He With The Newest Codex.  On the other side of the coin, people into the hobby for the modelling get pretty seriously stiffed on prices.  Sure, the models look nicer than they ever have, but they're way out of reach for anyone who doesn't have a paying job, which doesn't help by the newer rules encouraging higher figure counts.  Let alone anyone who wants to field a model that Citadel doesn't actually supply, now that they're truly joined at the hip to ForgeWorld.  The weakening British Pound has reduced that a little, but the cost of getting into the hobby is still really steep.

There's also something I think Jerry Holkins mentioned, that as Games Workshop have tried to take their brand into other markets, they've done a really lousy job of attracting attention.  Warhammer Online tanked hardcore and their trading card outings were almost non-existent.  However, Dawn of War and Space Marine sold like hotcakes, enough so that it almost seems like they're starting to overshadow the tabletop in GW's business decisions.

I wouldn't bet on 40K disappearing though.  It's still a brand after all, and as long as the Internet is still obsessed with it and the videogame sales keep kicking back royalties, I'm sure ludicrously overpriced tabletopping will still exist.

[RedKing]

I have to wonder about the viability of tabletop wargaming in this day and age. Especially when you can do so on your computer without having to leave the dank, dark privacy of your man-cave. I feel like board gaming in general is making a comeback, but not necessarily the grognard side of it.

[GlyphGryph]

Because painting and building on the computer is incredibly boring.

Wargaming on the computer is like playing Magic the Gathering with nothing but prebuilt decks, and asking why anyone would prefer making their own.

[Sirus]

I have to wonder about the viability of tabletop wargaming in this day and age. Especially when you can do so on your computer without having to leave the dank, dark privacy of your man-cave. I feel like board gaming in general is making a comeback, but not necessarily the grognard side of it.

I feel the opposite. I'd be more inclined to play with my actual miniatures, because I posed, assembled, and plan to paint them all myself. My Kroot Carnivores each have a "trophy" taken from some other army. I couldn't represent that on a computer screen.

[RedKing]

But you have to admit, the segment of the game-purchasing crowd that's into it for the modelling (I spent many a poorly-ventilated hour in my basement painting pewter Battemechs) is pretty small. Maybe a bit larger for the figure-intensive stuff like Battletech and WH40K, but still small. I never played WH40K in the flesh, so I'm happy with just the paint scheme customizations in the Dawn of War series.

[Chattox]

In my town in the UK Games Workshop is literally the only wargaming shop for miles around. The nearest one that doesn't sell only Warhammer is 2 bus rides and a long walk away. They have a stranglehold on this area, and the manager is a complete douche.

Come to think of it, my town is extremely lacking in the nerdy shop department. We only have Games Workshop for wargaming, GAME for video games, and a single comic store manned by a complete moron. He buys comics individually at retail price from Marvel and DC's websites and has them imported from America, and so the cost of that is passed on to customers, so they're waaay expensive.

[Sirus]

But you have to admit, the segment of the game-purchasing crowd that's into it for the modelling (I spent many a poorly-ventilated hour in my basement painting pewter Battemechs) is pretty small. Maybe a bit larger for the figure-intensive stuff like Battletech and WH40K, but still small. I never played WH40K in the flesh, so I'm happy with just the paint scheme customizations in the Dawn of War series.

Seems to me that there's quite a bit of overlap between the gamers and the painters. After all, what's the point in having an awesome-looking army if you can't pound your friend's army into the dust with it?

But yeah, if nothing else DoW had a pretty awesome army painter.