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[GlyphGryph]

But you have to admit, the segment of the game-purchasing crowd that's into it for the modelling (I spent many a poorly-ventilated hour in my basement painting pewter Battemechs) is pretty small. Maybe a bit larger for the figure-intensive stuff like Battletech and WH40K, but still small. I never played WH40K in the flesh, so I'm happy with just the paint scheme customizations in the Dawn of War series.

Huh, this is the opposite from my experience. Almost everyone I know who wargames spends the vast bulk of their time painting and building. Games are simply opportunities to show off their awesome figured. It's only the rare super-competitive player that seems to buy the figures predominantly for the game, and even THEY have custom built and painted figures to a ridiculous extreme.

I think you are underestimating just how central building and painting figures is to the hobby. Either that or my experience has been extremely atypical.

Remember that the GW business model is mostly focused on creating superfans that buy LOTS AND LOTS of models.

[RedKing]

Could be. Like I said, I never played WH40K in RL. Played plenty of Battletech using just cardboard counters though. Pewter figs were a luxury reserved for treasured favorites, like my modified JR7-F.

I did know some people (with more money than sense), who had entire battalions decked out with canon regimental pain schemes. But that was the exception to the rule.

[Servant Corps]

So is GW actually in trouble, or is this just a local thing and a bunch of anecdotes? Is it a good thing or a bad thing? Have you switched to/from a GW game lately, and too/from what?

According to their latest investor report, sales have been down by 2.9%, with the biggest declines in UK, North America, and Australia. However, Game Workshop has actually increased sales in Emerging Markets, and Games Workshop believes that it has made "satisfactory performance". It also has announced that it is resuming the process of sending dividends to shareholders, and that the company has made drastic improvement in the second half of the fiscal year. Maybe the company's sale figures might be able to rebound.

Still, total revenues have indeed decreased, due to the lack of sales. However, profits remain stable because GW was able to engage in effective cost-cutting measures.

You could also take a look at GW's stock value as well if you like tracking share prices.

[nenjin]

On the other side of the coin, people into the hobby for the modelling get pretty seriously stiffed on prices.  Sure, the models look nicer than they ever have, but they're way out of reach for anyone who doesn't have a paying job, which doesn't help by the newer rules encouraging higher figure counts.

I started GWS games almost 15 years ago and I can safely say that even back then the price to really get into the game was still prohibitive, even back in 2nd, 3rd edition. Starter kits were $40+, blisters were $5, boxed units were $30. You were still looking at several hundred dollars to field a 2,000 point army that wasn't made up entirely of baseline troops. I never got to field Dragon Ogres with my Chaos Army because it would have cost me ~$50 for a respectably-sized unit.

The price may have gotten even more expensive than it once was, but GWS has always been a hobby for the employed or for spoiled rich kids. Of the people I played with that weren't adults, holding down jobs or spoiled rich kids, everyone that had a 2,000+ point army had either traded for a large contingent of their figs or made heavy use of proxies.

[Aqizzar]

It's easy to forget that inflation is a real thing, even over the period of time I've paid attention to Warhammer, and that the models have improved in quality.  The Fighting Tigers of Veda guy has been playing 40k since it hit American shores in 1987, and in the Rogue Trader days Land Raiders came two to a box for $30.  But they were pretty much made of cellophane and a lot smaller and blobbier than they are now.

But yeah, the start up cost is the main reason I've never gotten back into it.  I basically traded for my old army, and it was definitely small.  Especially since I don't even really know anybody I'd play it against, I sure as Hell can't justify the likely $300 it would cost for even an options-heavy 1000-point Guard army.

Meanwhile though, the Dark Heresy and etc. line of stuff Fantasy Flight Games made from the Warhammer license has to be kicking back quite a few royalties (even taking into account that most of its fanbase just rapidshares the books).  I'm somewhat reluctantly ready to plunk down $60 for the Only War book when it comes out, since I'm sure it'll be their usual quality.  But then, that kind of says a lot in my estimation as a consumer, it's an outside developer doing better with the Warhammer brand than GW itself.

[nenjin]

And that's what really sucks about the game sometimes. Sure, you can get by with 1,000 points of baseline troops....but if you want options, prepare to make war on your wallet. Sure I guess you can use proxies, but if you were going that route you might as well substitute everything and save yourself a few hundred dollars.

That's what I hated about Fantasy Chaos. If you wanted anything cool beyond characters and army leaders, it was a minimum $30 to get it.

And while the models have improved a lot, GWS never ever passed on the savings of switching from pewter casts to injection moulded figs to the customer, something that continues to stick in my craw when I see a boxed plastic squad going for $45+.

The only thing GWS I spend money on these days are the fiction novels.

[GlyphGryph]

I think it's biggest competitors like warmachine really have that as their weak point at the moment. They need to fear the day WarMachine, for example, develops an effective fiction department and gets really penetration with its lore. (They are certainly working on it, I believe)

So GW is still doing well now, yeah, but they're faltering a bit, and for the first time in a long time there might be a chance of them doing something other than getting bigger.

[Sirus]

The only thing GWS I spend money on these days are the fiction novels.

Gotta admit, there have been some damn fine novelists working with the lore.

[nenjin]

The only thing GWS I spend money on these days are the fiction novels.

Gotta admit, there have been some damn fine novelists working with the lore.

The Horus Heresy line of novels are LOVE.

[MonkeyHead]

Relevant on the state of play (Ha! Pun!) in the UK

[Sirus]

The only thing GWS I spend money on these days are the fiction novels.

Gotta admit, there have been some damn fine novelists working with the lore.

The Horus Heresy line of novels are LOVE.

I've been looking at those (the nearest bookstore has a decent selection), but I hold off because I'm not sure which one is the "first" one. I hate reading a book and realizing that I'm coming in half-way through the series D:

Right now though, my favorite is Ciaphas Cain (HERO OF ETC). Actual, complex, human characters? Without being totally grimdark? IN 40K?! More likely than you think.

[Aqizzar]

And that's what really sucks about the game sometimes. Sure, you can get by with 1,000 points of baseline troops....but if you want options, prepare to make war on your wallet. Sure I guess you can use proxies, but if you were going that route you might as well substitute everything and save yourself a few hundred dollars.

By options-heavy, I actually meant loading up each unit in the roster with goodies, so they cost more points each and you wind up with an overall smaller figure-count.  And as expensive as the vehicle models are, they do soak up a lot of points.  Of course, with Guard I'd be spending a shitload on paint anyway.

I was looking at Guard because the Guard is awesome, and also because I noticed that GW's pricing seems to almost be based more on point cost and utility rather than production cost.  A boxed squad of Marines and a twenty-pack of Guardsmen are about the same cost, even though the latter has almost twice as many pieces.  And the less fundamental something is to an army's design, the more bucks... And of course, you need non-fundamentals if you want an army that's any "fun".

Hell, I think the cheapest-by-figure design I came up with was a 1000-point Chaos Marine list, with like two or three vehicles and twenty guys.  And then I noticed that biker models are like $15 a pop.

[nenjin]

I've been looking at those (the nearest bookstore has a decent selection), but I hold off because I'm not sure which one is the "first" one. I hate reading a book and realizing that I'm coming in half-way through the series D:

Horus Rising is the book you want to start with. And yes, I agree, I'd HATE to start in the middle of the series. The narrative is so long and winding that you'd miss half of the context by doing so. It is essentially the history of the Horus Heresy starting from the fall of Horus to the Battle for Terra. It'd be like reading a book about English history and starting with Henry VIII instead of William the Conqueror.

A boxed squad of Marines and a twenty-pack of Guardsmen are about the same cost, even though the latter has almost twice as many pieces.  And the less fundamental something is to an army's design, the more bucks... And of course, you need non-fundamentals if you want an army that's any "fun".

Again, why GWS in fantasy pissed me off so much. A 6-man squad of ultra (points-wise) expensive Chaos Warriors? $30! A box of 35 grots? $30! The prices are arranged such that no matter what army you're playing, to really reach effectiveness, you have to pay.

Games Workshop's executives say they don't do media interviews, preferring to focus on their hobbyists. But chief executive officer Mark Wells emails me about the claim of price exploitation. "That would go against everything we stand for. It's just not in our nature," he writes.

Har. Dee. Har. Har. Har.

[fenrif]

I used to be well into the 40K stuff when I was younger. A year or so ago me and some friends wanted to get back into wargaming, went down to the local (non GW brand) shop to see what they had.

Ended up buying Warmachine starter boxes because you'd be a fool not to really. I don't think GW is going to die out or anything, but they really need to take a look at their buisness model if they want to stay the top dog. It seems like they've essentially had a monopoly for so long that they've become complaicent. Even outside the pricing structure and all the things related to that. Stuff like making sure the game stays balanced and keeping faction updates consistent are really basic things that GW seems to think is either impossible or beneath them.

They can't bank on the existing 40K/WFB players forever, and more and more people are going to goto the cheaper/better designed alternatives.

[Impending Doom]

Has Warmachine really gotten that much cheaper? Last time I had a look at my local gaming store, a small box with a single small-ish warjack (I believe that's what they're called) cost nearly as much as an entire box of space marines.