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[Blizzlord]

So I recently watched a video tossing ideas around over how the brony culture is affecting the definition of masculinity. By making valid points and actually not criticizing anybody it got me thinking: where lies the border between what is manly and what is girly? Being the pale computer freak I am I believe that if I tried to define it then it would be filled with prejudice and stereotypes while being generally incomplete.

How would you bay watchers define the difference and; more importantly, the border between the two?

[Frumple]

I've never really thought about it, and I'd say it really depends upon who you're talking to, because everyone has different opinions of this.

Not just who... where and when, too. The "border" moves depending on both circumstance and the person in question.

Of th'personal opinion that that nonsense is nonsense, though. Behavioral patterns supersede gender roles in th'hierarchy of my attention. Person is person, not masculine or feminine. If culture thinks particular behavioral patterns reflect gender somehow... meh. Bugger that. Human is human, fiddly physiological bits don't make enough difference for me to care, though I do, of course, realize that society does a lot of arbitrary shoving of people into gender roles. Which, yeah. T'blazes with that. Does more harm than good, in m'opinion. Makes things simpler and/or easier, but not better.

So, yeah. My stance is "throw that junk out the window." I more or less refuse to recognize it as genuinely existent.

[DarkWolfXV]

Masculine? You mean, manly? Bronies manly?
These people who think bony culture is manly really need to rethink their definition of word "masculine", i dont think it is masculine, because main characters, are girls, well, female ponies, show itself is about friendship (Amirite?) and its designed for kids/teen girls. I watched it few times with my younger sister, its not bad, but definitley its not masculine. To me masculine is like, millitary, extreme sports, and probably metal. Something that shows power of male, while female also are in millitary, extreme sports and metal, its mainly domain of males.
The problem is that some men can be girly, and some women can be manly.
To me, MLP is another trend, most people probably dont appreciate the show, but instead involve themselves in culture and watch it because its cool, just like dubstep nowadays.

[kaijyuu]

Here's a lovely rule you should never forget:

The "meaning" behind being in a group is decided by its individual members. The group doesn't decide by vote, nor do people outside the group have any say.


So you, as a man, are the one who decides what "masculinity" really means. Your actions define it; it does not define your actions. Your fellow men may have their own definitions on masculinity too, and they may conflict with yours, but no definitions are more "right" than any other. And anyone outside that group (in this case, women), have zero say on what masculinity means.

Same can be applied to pretty much every group ever. Racial, gender, what have you.



As for the "border" between masculinity and femininity, that's a faulty line of thought. These things are not a dichotomy. Doing something "feminine" does not mean you're a traitor to "masculinity." They overlap.

[Rose]

Manly is being as swift as a racing river, having the force of a great typhoon, having the strength of a raging fire, and being mysterious as the dark side of the moon.

[kaijyuu]

Manly is being as swift as a racing river, having the force of a great typhoon, having the strength of a raging fire, and being mysterious as the dark side of the moon.

Mulan is the manliest women ever, then

[Trapezohedron]

Manly is being as swift as a racing river, having the force of a great typhoon, having the strength of a raging fire, and being mysterious as the dark side of the moon.

Mulan is the manliest women ever, then

Of course.

[Rose]

Manly is being as swift as a racing river, having the force of a great typhoon, having the strength of a raging fire, and being mysterious as the dark side of the moon.

Mulan is the manliest women ever, then

Of course.

Was there ever any doubt?

[3]

Semi-offtopic: I have no idea why the brony movement has attracted as much attention as it has. People have been doing exactly the same thing in regard to internet-related fads and fandoms for over a decade, and they've been doing it in meatspace since the dawn of mankind. An easy comparison: Any major anime fandom. Fans connect with characters outside of their usual comfort zone as the typical social constraints aren't as easily self-enforced in a medium that's inherently surreal. They run around and spout catchphrases and post image macros with childlike abandon until they realise they're overdoing it and/or get bored and move on; unless there are a lot of other people doing the same thing, in which case everyone ecourages everyone else to carry on doing the same thing, and the behaviour eventually becomes complex enough to be considered a sub-culture. Of course, this is true for "masculinity" and "femininity" as well, in that the established behaviour is a set of self-enforcing rules that've become so entrenched that they take a great deal of effort to shift.

There is no magical paradigm shift here. As kaijyuu says, such labels are just that: labels used to describe prevalent trends in behaviour. They have no inherent meaning.

[nenjin]

It is a very sexy border.

[Trapezohedron]

Semi-offtopic: I have no idea why the brony movement has attracted as much attention as it has. People have been doing exactly the same thing in regard to internet-related fads and fandoms for over a decade, and they've been doing it in meatspace since the dawn of mankind. An easy comparison: Any major anime fandom. Fans connect with characters outside of their usual comfort zone as the typical social constraints aren't as easily self-enforced in a medium that's inherently surreal. They run around and spout catchphrases and post image macros with childlike abandon until they realise they're overdoing it and/or get bored and move on; unless there are a lot of other people doing the same thing, in which case everyone ecourages everyone else to carry on doing the same thing, and the behaviour eventually becomes complex enough to be considered a sub-culture. Of course, this is true for "masculinity" and "femininity" as well, in that the established behaviour is a set of self-enforcing rules that've become so entrenched that they take a great deal of effort to shift.

There is no magical paradigm shift here. As kaijyuu says, such labels are just that: labels used to describe prevalent trends in behaviour. They have no inherent meaning.

@pony
I'm not quite sure. Being western and developed by Lauren Faust, who also did Powerpuff Girls must've helped the show gain some momentum. That and the nigh-unstoppable attempts the fanbase has made to add more people to its own, in the early days.

[Blizzlord]

There is no magical paradigm shift here. As kaijyuu says, such labels are just that: labels used to describe prevalent trends in behaviour. They have no inherent meaning.

True thing. I never followed what others thought was masculine and stereotypical. But I never talked about that. I talked about that general label which people stamp over every other anime, person and place. What changes the stereotypical definition of manly?

[kaijyuu]

What changes the stereotypical definition of manly?

Time and changes in trends.


Blue used to be the "feminine" color and red was the "masculine" one, just 100 years ago. It flipped sometime around the 40s. Will it flip again? Who knows. Depends if trends change, and how long they stick around or if the trend is forgotten.

[Agdune]

I'll simply say that I'm the most feminine male I know and (were I female) I would be the most masculine Female I know. I straddle that border simply because I thoroughly ignore stereotypes and gender roles; I like girly things and being all emotionally aware/open, but I'm also quite able to be happy being stoic and daydreaming about war. I'll do what damn well pleases me; I have no interest in conforming to the social constructs of gender, because I'm fully aware that they're just that; Purely social constructs with no actual direct grounding in any practicality. I don't care if my classmates are confused by hearing a somewhat masculine-looking male talking about shoe-related fashion points for 15 minutes not long after he just talked about how nice breasts are to look at, because to put it as bluntly as possible; if their comprehension of other people relies mostly on stereotyped schemas, I don't really give that much of a crap what their opinion about anything is and I'll be utterly fucked if I'm going to pander to their lack of insight.

Anyway, sorry if I'm sounding rather harsh, but it's just been one of those days where I had to spend a long time hanging around a pack of my male 'peers' listening to their incredibly thick "I haven't developed intellectually since grade 3 LOL HERES A JOKE: GAYS PUT PENISES IN THEIR BUMS LOL QUEERS" bullshit. Sometimes it feels like every single Australian male is actually just a 6 year old bigot in an adult's body. I'm not saying females are universally paragons of tolerance and understanding either, but at least being an aggressive, emotionally immature/insecure, bigoted fuckwit isn't actively encouraged in most female demographics I've encountered.

No, female bigotry just evolves naturally, like mould on a delicious curry, tainting it and prompting people to throw it out as rotten. This stands in stark contrast to artificially cultured male bigotry which is more like mould on overpriced gourmet cheese that smells a bit like stale semen (as I've often noticed of blue vein cheese, but never really pointed out before). Neither is nice, objectively speaking, but at least there's solace in the fact that we all take the curry mould for what it really is; a stinky fungal mess that we shouldn't really try to eat.

...anyway. Complex-to-write-but-hopefully-humorous analogy over.

Bronys love my little pony. Good for 'em, Maybe I should watch some; given the massive explosion of love for it, it probably isn't that bad. I would like to see it being more a matter of "well we don't care about gender roles" rather than "My little pony is for BOYS NOW LOL ITS HARDCORE" and seeing the same male/female segregation of interests but with a few specifics changed (e.g. 'It is now okay for boys to like robots, war, sports and ponies. Nothing else.')

[TheBronzePickle]

It's funny. Over on the pony forum we have pretty much this same thread.

I'm also slightly surprised this hasn't been locked yet as a subversive attempt to bring pony discussion back, but I guess that's an unfair judgement towards Toady's reason. He's smarter and hopefully more trusting than that.

But, more to the point, I've always found it kinda funny how the ideas of masculinity and femininity have defined people so much. Admittedly it's just another bit of labeling, but I've personally always been somewhat infatuated with the idea of the Renaissance person: someone who balances their behavior and skills between that which is considered masculine and that which is considered feminine, hopefully in a way that makes the person able to act and think in the most beneficial ways possible. Admittedly, such an ideal goal is probably impossible, but one can dream.