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[Tuplis]

Nice job, you guys have been busy!

As for the errors, I think both of you ran into the same problem:
Are you sure the tile that's producing the error is defined as a SpawnTile instead of just a normal Tile? Tile has no attribute called CreatureChance so that's why it gives an error about it. By the names of the tiles, I guess not.

I might have to do something about that little quirk because both of you are having a hard time with it.

Edit: Just debugged nullzero's files. The problem is that BasicFloor has a creature and a creaturechance attached to it. That's a no go since it's just a Tile.

Also at the moment the builder always builds 1.txt first. I'll change it so it builds the map in the first row of the maplist.txt. Currently there's The House there but I'll put the BasicLand there in the next release.

And one more thing: You don't have to add the Type field at all in the Tile files any more. I won't remove the field in the code (at least yet) so you won't get an error message, but it's not needed at all either.

[Tuplis]

Released today's version. Changelog includes:

- Exported player character into PlayerCharacter.xml
- Implemented scrolling map (This means maps of unlimited size! Woo!)
- Fixed a few bugs
- Cleaned up and improved the debugging messages a little bit

[sayaks]

Cool, i'll see if that was the problem... In about a month... (i'm going on vacation soon, woo!)

[Tuplis]

Here's the latest news:

I decided to implement a quest system now, because I felt like Zombies isn't a GAME yet. I didn't have time to finish it, but I am very far along. As per usual, it will be possible to create quests by xml files. Quests consist of Objectives, which again are defined through xml files. So far a player can have any number of quests and the system knows how to track their progress. Currently I only have one Objective type, Kill, implemented. I'll show you a little snippet.

ZombieQuest.xml:

Code: [Select]

<Quest>
<Class>Quest</Class>
<addObjective>$Objective.KillFiveZombies</addObjective>
<Description>Zombies must die!</Description>
</Quest>
KillFiveZombies.xml:

Code: [Select]

<Objective>
<Class>Kill</Class>
<Description>I must kill five Zombies</Description>
<Target>$Creature.BasicZombie</Target>
<KillCount>5</KillCount>
</Objective>
What this means is that there is now a Quest in the game (just noticed I need to add a quest name ). The quest can have a general description too. For each Objective you have to add a <addObjective> that points to the Objective that the system will have to generate. The Objective file on the other hand will specify how the particular objective class behaves. The finished one is the Kill class which defines the monster you have to kill (via a sub object reference), the description of the objective and the kill count you need to achieve.

Tomorrow I plan on finishing the quest system so that a quest can actually be closed out. As it stands, there is no way to track the progress on the ui and while the objectives are fulfilled, the quest won't end. Later I can add different objective types, for example fetching items.

What do you think?

[Tuplis]

Just released the ability to make and complete quests! Now Zombies is an actual game (has a purpose).

You can view the quest log by clicking l. Then use letters a to z (just a and b for now) to see the objectives to each quest.

Every quest is defined in a xml file under the QuestTemplates folder. You must link some Objectives to each Quest. There is currently only one type of objectives, Kill objectives, and you can define which creature to kill and the kill count. You can also define a reward in the quest file for completing the quest.

Currently the hero starts with the two quests that are in the QuestTemplates folder. If you want to experiment, edit those.

How do you like it?

[nullzero]

First, I couldn't look at your progress since last weekend, so besides saying "Quests, yeah!" I can't give some input yet.

In the backlog I see that there were some questions regarding some of the ideas, and I thought of explaining better in here.

Here go the sugestions:

bullet spread (missing due to angle deviation, can hit other target by luck)

Based on what? shooter skill? target defence? just a certain spread rate characteristic to the gun?

I would say initially only based on the gun. I'm thinking of a kind of a Doom2 super shotgun effect, with pellets spread all over.Maybe latter a class skill (accurate machinegunner) could cause less spread.


 

flashlight (cone like view)

How do you determine the direction that is faced? Controls for turning? Or do we track which direction the creature was moving?

Here I was thinking on seeing in the direction that were faced yes, but that would involve changing the controls and tracking direction. It would be more for immersion, that with sounds could make the game scarier,if we want to go in that direction.

auto load game (start game where the game was last disconnected)

What do we want to persist? Items on the ground? Monsters?

basically quit, save all, restart game, and be in the exact same spot. Basically auto savegame with only one save. 'Cause as a roguelike there should be no standard saves. Maybe instead of save I should have said "auto continue".

tile that spawns a random item from the items folder

Any one of them or from a predefined list? I could see a predefined list being Imore valuable (food in the kitchen, clothes in the bedoom, weapons in the gun store, etc

That could be too! Functions like random weapon, random item, random food, could be good for mapmaking, if we go down the levels are fixed all else is random route.

Support to change default symbols and background colors in the map

Wut?

In the game there are default colors, used in all the "simpleTiles", it would be good to be able to change these too, maybe in the map, so as to create for example a night mode effect, just changing the colors.


and know, keep up the good work, i'll try to catch on on the weekend.

[finka]

The Kill objectives feel pretty Twenty Bear Asses to me.  I wonder what kind of more narratively-relevant quests could be added. 

[Tuplis]

First, I couldn't look at your progress since last weekend, so besides saying "Quests, yeah!" I can't give some input yet.

In the backlog I see that there were some questions regarding some of the ideas, and I thought of explaining better in here.

Here go the sugestions:

stuff...

Great, some of these are immediately doable like the default colors and bullet spread (actually yesterday I noticed the bullets do spread - there's a minor, minor bug in the tracking algorithms that I need to find - sigh).

The part about tracking, though, I'm not sure. My problem with it is that if we go that route, it'll change the feel of the game a lot because now instead of walking, you need to walk AND look around which means a lot slower pace. I'm not saying there's necessarily anything wrong with a slower pace but if I implement this for the player and the monsters there's stuff we need to figure out. This'd be a pretty large bunch of work and I'd rather not roll it back afterwards.

What do other people think? I could see cone vision setting us to a more stealth-based roguelike experience. You'd need to need to carefully observe the areas around, need to see which way the zombies are looking and avoid them. I saw a zombie film the other day called "The Dead". The main character had to change car tires (ie. do something that takes a lot of time) alone and had to constantly be on the lookout, thus slowing his progress. That was pretty intense. Is it what we'd prefer?

The Kill objectives feel pretty Twenty Bear Asses to me.  I wonder what kind of more narratively-relevant quests could be added.

I agree with you, yes. The quest system isn't completely finished. I figured that the kill objective is the one that will be there for sure (if only for boss monster kills or sth) so that's why I made it first. Regarding your second sentence, I'm looking to get vision from you guys. Don't worry about whether it can be done. Just tell me what you want. Basically now we have an objective that reacts to killing stuff. What would you like to see a quest objective react to?

[shadowm22]

Some thing i think a lot of zombie games are missing is wildlife were are all the animals sure you could say they were all eaten but what if instead there were animles roaming in forest ares and dogs and cats in city some times they will be alive possibly ruining form zombies other they may  be corps or zombifed dogs and cats there could even be birds and rats (all rpgs need rats ) and you could feed the different animles food to try and befriend them.

[Tuplis]

Some thing i think a lot of zombie games are missing is wildlife were are all the animals sure you could say they were all eaten but what if instead there were animles roaming in forest ares and dogs and cats in city some times they will be alive possibly ruining form zombies other they may  be corps or zombifed dogs and cats there could even be birds and rats (all rpgs need rats ) and you could feed the different animles food to try and befriend them.

As of right now, anyone can make zombie-type creatures. What you are effectively proposing is that I make it possible to create an animal type of creature - and that's a great idea! I'll add it to the backlog.

I didn't have really time to develop yesterday except for a couple mins so I only got one really minor thing done. For the next couple of days, I'll probably focus on the less thinking heavy features (display for keybinds, bullet spread, postmortem, status effects) in the hopes someone makes a map or contributes with his/her thinking/design some more.

I also added a couple of objective types in the backlog, I might think of one or two more things to add there so go read em and comment/evaluate them.

edit: I would also have people think about specific in-game mechanics which could differentiate this game a little bit. While I feel this game has a spectacularly good editing options so far, there are no mechanics (outside of item integrity that Dariush proposed) that would set this game apart from others. I have a couple of ideas that I'll share with you later but I'd rather hear other opinions first so as to not anchor anyone.

[10ebbor10]

What about adding something like weather. Obviously not that usefull until drink/food/ other nessicities get in, but going out in a thunderstorm/ fog isn't that smart. Similiairy zombies would be slower when it's freezing(Assuming semi living zombies) and such.

Second you could add a "Justified" Ai system.

Zombies would move through noise, as a sensible zombie. However, in a way similiar to ants, they would spread pheromones. For example, when they see you, they would emit a rather far spreading pheromone that would attract other zombies. When they die, they would emit another pheremone, which would deter zombies from that palce for a short while. By messing with different types of pheremones,  their strength and the time they linger, you could create a whole lot of emergent zombie behaviours.

[Tuplis]

What about adding something like weather. Obviously not that usefull until drink/food/ other nessicities get in, but going out in a thunderstorm/ fog isn't that smart. Similiairy zombies would be slower when it's freezing(Assuming semi living zombies) and such.

Second you could add a "Justified" Ai system.

Zombies would move through noise, as a sensible zombie. However, in a way similiar to ants, they would spread pheromones. For example, when they see you, they would emit a rather far spreading pheromone that would attract other zombies. When they die, they would emit another pheremone, which would deter zombies from that palce for a short while. By messing with different types of pheremones,  their strength and the time they linger, you could create a whole lot of emergent zombie behaviours.

Weather is something I could definitely have a look at, though I have to admit it's something that might require a lot of work - I can see several technical reasons why it can't be implemented in a straightforward manner as it is.

As for the pheromone mechanic, I could see that working, however currently I have the flocking algorithm in place (if zombies can't see a living but can see a dead, they will walk towards it). Currently my vision regarding that is that the zombies could "mimick" other nearby zombies, ie. when one zombie in the flock starts moving, the others will also even if they don't know where they're headed. That is quite similar to the attraction pheromone you described.

I kind of disagree with the deterring pheromone, though, based on how I view zombies. I feel as though a zombie only really has the urge to eat and no emotions, therefore not experiencing impulses to specifically NOT go to a certain direction. How would you "justify" zombies having such an urge?

[10ebbor10]

Out of game:
I have no idea where your zombies came from, but if they are of the modern variety (ie biovirus or similair), it would make sense for whoever to have created them to add it. After all, whitout it, zombies would also walk straight to their death (I always imagine zombies as being extremely dumb, incapable of anything but to smash the nearest thing). With the pheromone in place, zombies would "learn" to avoid dangerous things, like cliffs and such. (Note that they still can't recognize things, they know one cliff is dangerous, yet it learns them nothing about the other cliffs.)

In game:

It would allow for interesting behaviour. The detterant would not be that strong, the noise and/or sight of a living being would overrule it. In the following situation:
(The hideout of player A is accessible from two streets. Street A leads directly to a major source of zombies, and is therefore heavily trapped/ defended. Street B just goes around the block, before arriving at the major source of zombies and has neglible defenses. In what I think is the current system, the zombies would move through street A and get slaughtered. With the pheromone system in place, zombies would first go street A and get slaughtered, before the pheromone builds up and route A becomes a less favourable route. They would then switch to route B, and overrun the player's base)

Other useages would be the player deliberatly spreading zombie parts around to get a repulsive layer of pheromones across his base.

Later you could add other things to the system, like the smell of meat and such. That would make the second example even more interesting, as the protective barrier of zombie flesh would, as soon as the phereomone has been broken down, attract more zombies

[Lintsi]

Out of game:
I have no idea where your zombies came from, but if they are of the modern variety (ie biovirus or similair), it would make sense for whoever to have created them to add it. After all, whitout it, zombies would also walk straight to their death (I always imagine zombies as being extremely dumb, incapable of anything but to smash the nearest thing). With the pheromone in place, zombies would "learn" to avoid dangerous things, like cliffs and such. (Note that they still can't recognize things, they know one cliff is dangerous, yet it learns them nothing about the other cliffs.)

In game:

It would allow for interesting behaviour. The detterant would not be that strong, the noise and/or sight of a living being would overrule it. In the following situation:
(The hideout of player A is accessible from two streets. Street A leads directly to a major source of zombies, and is therefore heavily trapped/ defended. Street B just goes around the block, before arriving at the major source of zombies and has neglible defenses. In what I think is the current system, the zombies would move through street A and get slaughtered. With the pheromone system in place, zombies would first go street A and get slaughtered, before the pheromone builds up and route A becomes a less favourable route. They would then switch to route B, and overrun the player's base)

Other useages would be the player deliberatly spreading zombie parts around to get a repulsive layer of pheromones across his base.

Later you could add other things to the system, like the smell of meat and such. That would make the second example even more interesting, as the protective barrier of zombie flesh would, as soon as the phereomone has been broken down, attract more zombies

As I read the about pheromones from wikipedia I stumbled upon the fact that alarm pheromones trigger flight in certain species and aggression in others, like ants, termites and bees. I think alarm pheromones should trigger aggression in zombies, not flight. Boy that would be weak. If pheromones would be included in the game, should they not trigger blood lust in zombies for a few turns if anything? You know, you kill one of those and the others tear doors like paper for a moment. That could be awesome.

[Tuplis]

Released another version:

- ? to access keybinds screen, esc to exit.
- Added status information on the right side of the screen.
- Refactored the ui presentation mechanics. Mostly it was to make them work in a more unified manner but you should see some minor aesthetic improvements here and there. Report if anything looks strange.

Good discussion going back and forth. Both the aggressive and the defensive mechanics are pretty well-founded in my opinion, and their viability depends a lot on which direction we want to take the game. I read a nice article earlier on 'Zombie science' and would suggest reading it ( http://www.inkpunks.com/2012/05/23/putting-the-science-in-zombie-apocalypse/ ). These pheromone ideas kind of fit in there if you think about it.

That's why I'd like people to explicitly state which way they want to go:
1. Stealth-centric (for example, cone-like field of vision, greater emphasis on finding ways to avoid zombies through mitigating smell, sound, etc)
2. Arcade-style (piling 'em up with big weapons like rocket launchers, miniguns, etc)
3. Survival style (sleeping, eating, drinking, shelters, barricading, etc a la Rogue Survivor)

Of course we don't have to strcitly choose one but I'd like to have a consistent vision on what we're going after, because features are supposed to be made to support the vision, not the other way around. That's not to say these ideas aren't good - they're great! But the problem is which ones to choose!

edit: There's also an article on Gamasutra regarding mechanics that you can employ to make Zombies better. Check it out if you have time.
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/173144/building_a_better_zombie.php

edit2: Next I'll probably improve the performance of the zombies' sensing algorithm. It's currently pretty slow but I did come up with a way to speed it up by quite a bit. It'll take some effort though.