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[MetalSlimeHunt]

Most liberals in America are liberals with guns. It's just one of those things.

[Mr. Palau]

I've always found it funny how Americans think that the drug wars in Mexico are horrific, and are so affraid of illegal immigrants coming here and causing crime like that here, while the drug wars are being fought with American guns (90% American to be precise http://www.newser.com/story/100011/us-guns-litter-90-of-mexican-crime-scenes.html).

[Lagslayer]

They would just get guns elsewhere if not from us.

[mainiac]

And they would die eventually of natural causes anyway.

[GlyphGryph]

We're pretty much the entire reason for the Mexican drug wars over here in the US.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Yeah, but it isn't the guns causing it, it's the drug law. There are a plethora of gun suppliers in the world, they really don't need US guns, we're just close by.

[GlyphGryph]

"We don't make people shoot each other, we just make people shooting each other easier and less expensive! (Also we provide the reason for them to shoot each other)"

Is that a pretty good summary of the state of affairs?

[RedKing]

I've always found it funny how Americans think that the drug wars in Mexico are horrific, and are so affraid of illegal immigrants coming here and causing crime like that here, while the drug wars are being fought with American guns (90% American to be precise http://www.newser.com/story/100011/us-guns-litter-90-of-mexican-crime-scenes.html).

While I'm the LAST person to want to countermand that narrative, that's a pretty shoddy piece of journalism. The numbers are somewhat in dispute, but suffice it to say that yes, there's a major problem with gun smuggling. The problem is that when people start tossing around numbers, unless the evidence is ironclad, the NRA lobby jumps on that and uses it as an excuse to disregard the entire argument.

We're pretty much the entire reason for the Mexican drug wars over here in the US.

A bit oversimplified. Yes, we're a primary drug market and a primary weapon supplier. But it's also true that the cartels are so entrenched because the PRI had a cozy arrangement with them for decades, which allowed them to become entrenched. Back in the 80's, you didn't hear a damn thing about Mexican drug cartels, because business was nice and quiet and everyone had an arrangement that worked for them. The status quo was in everyone's best interests (other than perhaps the US drug enforcement efforts). When Felipe Calderon (the second non-PRI President in Mexico in 70 years; the first was Vicente Fox, his predecessor) decided this wasn't going to happen anymore, that's what triggered it. At first, it was the cartels versus the Federales. When it really got hairy was when the Federales actually managed to take down a few high-profile targets. Suddenly the balance of power between the cartels was thrown into chaos, and you had not only internal wars of succession within cartels but wars between cartels over turf. Most of the worst violence now is inter-cartel rather than with the government.

Textbook case of the law of unintended consqeuences. 

[Mr. Palau]

And they would die eventually of natural causes anyway.

First off, lol. (I know lol is not used a lot on these forums [for some reason?] but yeah)

Yeah, but it isn't the guns causing it, it's the drug law. There are a plethora of gun suppliers in the world, they really don't need US guns, we're just close by.

Well Mexico bans guns. And we make up most of Mexico's total land border area (I pulled that out of my ass but it is pretty obvious if you look at a map), so the only other avenues into Mexico would be the occean, a notoriously obvious, inconvienent, and expensive route, or that tiny country that is their south border (guatamala maybe?). Now, look at the list of the worlds major arm exporters (take my word for it or look here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_industry), you will see that only one of them shares a border with Mexico, and none of them are in South America. It follows therefore, that if the US were to, in a magic scenerio, halt all gun produciton (or limit them to only 5 bullets per magezine or some other thing that would vastly reduce their ability to kill people) Mexicans would have to import their guns across either the Pacific or Atlantic occeans.

Now small boats can not cross an occean, so the boats bringing the guns to Mexico would be pretty darn noticible. The increased cost of transportation would also increase the cost of the guns (likely in a significant way), limiting the amount of people the cartles could employ.

[Mrhappyface]

Well I'm of a mindset that not all traditional values are EVIL, unlike some of my college buddies. I also believe that personal responsibility and financial independence should still exist to a certain extent.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

I've never heard of anything that's called a traditional value an liked it.

[kaijyuu]

Personal responsibility for financial independence is one of the biggest things I'm personally against. Living healthily isn't something to be earned; it's a right. Practical concerns are the only things that should be standing between us and achieving free life for all.

Many other forms of personal responsibility are a-okay to me though~


And yeah, "traditional values" aren't inherently evil, but they're not inherently good either. It seem some people see the "traditional" part and assume it's good or bad, when the traditional-ness of it is utterly irrelevant. We've done things right in the past, and we've done things wrong; that we've done it at all shouldn't be on the radar except to see examples of the value's effects.

[scriver]

I don't know. Liberté, Égalité, Fraternité are pretty traditional by now and they embody the lrftwing ideals and values rather well. Or well, the socialist left at least.

I'd even go as far as saying progressivism has a lot stronger tradition in the west than conservatism.

[Mrhappyface]

Weird, huh? We actually have enough food for world hunger and possibly malnutrition to be no longer existent in the world. Transportation costs are mainly the problem.
I just hope that giving everyone a relatively good standard of living won't keep some people from being unable to go beyond.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

I don't know. Liberté, Égalité, Fraternité are pretty traditional by now and they embody the lrftwing ideals and values rather well. Or well, the socialist left at least.

I'd even go as far as saying progressivism has a lot stronger tradition in the west than conservatism.

I actually see Liberté, Égalité, Fraternité and the French Revolution as a whole as the paradigm shift from traditional to modern society, along with the start of the slow and ongoing death of traditional society. Some ascribe that role to the American Revolution, but I would disagree. The American Revolution was certainly in the same vein of modern thought, but as it only changed the thirteen colonies its more of a precursor. The French Revolution changed the world as a whole because it changed how people thought, and the echos of that are still changing the world hundreds of years after the fact.